China Uncivilized (Chinese please respond)

It's interesting all this talk about "uncivilized." Yet I have yet to see anything that explains exactly what is meant by "uncivilized."

Is uncivilized a synonym for "not like America and the Western world?" You gotta be careful there, the Western world hasn't been real rosy either.

It's also really difficult to not be barbaric when you're one of the world's oldest civilizations and you don't have the luxuries affored by the Western world...

Originally posted by xalex
China wont' send any envoy to Pope's funeral and are attemting to block Taiwan's President from visiting.

China

This has to be one of the most uncivilized act by any government in recent times.

What, are you joking? China is communist, their state policy is that religion is a tool used to control the masses. Besides, I'd think that the savage murder and extermination of the Fur in Sudan ranks as quite a bit more uncivilized than not sending an 'envoy' to the funeral of a religious leader tht they have nothing to do with.

Even Syria and Iran is sending there presidents.

Why? Syria has some christians, and so does iran, but why are they even bothering? Lets not pretend that the mullahs or Assad are personally concerned. They are keeping up appearences probably. At least china is saying that they don't care, why the heck should they?

These commies think the world revolve around them.
Not for nothing, but it sounds like you think that everything is revolving around you and what you want. Sending or not sending an 'envoy' to the pope's funeral has nothing to do with being 'civilized'.

Chinese please justify this for your govenment.

Why should anyone who is a citizen of china have to justify its government, let along any chinese people have to justify it? They aren't responsible for it, and they shouldn't have to 'publically declare' that they are opposed to it even if they are.

Originally posted by xalex
Well Vatican is a state too. So if Blair died tomorrow

Why would china send an emassary to blairs funderal anyway?

On top of that China is trying to stop Taiwan's president from going.

Taiwan, according to teh chinese, is part of china, and the president of taiwan doesn't get to do whatever he wants.

What about freedom and basic human dignity people?

So it went from 'the most uncivilized nation' to 'they're not nice'?

Well the Pope did stop the Soviets from raping you.

Lets just pretend that the preist pedophilia disaster didn't occur for this one.

. I don't care if China doesn't go, but why should it tell Taiwan's President not to go.

Taiwan is part of china, thats chinese policy, and very few countries in teh world recognize taiwan as an independant country. Its like if there was a war in the US, and the losers went to florida, and siad 'we're independant', but no once recognized them as such. And now you have, say, the president of florida saying 'i am going to osama bin ladin's funeral' and the us president saying 'no, you're not allowed to'. See?According to China, Taiwain is still a province within china. Its a complex issue.

The whole thing is complex really, because china is /not/ part of the western world, and it has entirely independant moral standards. Sometimes those standards coincide with the west, sometimes they don't.

But to say that this piddling little nothingness is "the most uncivilized act by any government in recent times" is, quite simply, indefensible. If nothing else, china has commited much more serious acts against civilization on their own, let alone in the rest of the world.

Originally posted by xalex
The point is China has no dignity. I don't care if China doesn't go, but why should it tell Taiwan's President not to go.

Granted there are issues relatinting to Taiwan's independence, but have some dignity and self respect in allowing your enemy to attend a funeral. Thats where I say China is uncivilized (not to be confused with chinese people).

LMAOx2!

So your saying, your country is uncivilized but the countries citizens are ok?

Give it up, do you even know what civilized means?

Again, mods, i think this thread belongs in the politics section, it is clearly just flamebait.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
China doesn't believe in religon.....niether do I.

China is the OLdest civilization on Earth.

I think the Middle East, primarily the Akkadians and Sumerians are older. Maybe I'm just baised due to being Chaldean.

To the earlier comment about Chinese to have the highest honor level in the world among families, I think the Chaldean people are strong competitors. They are not the typical muslim arabs, infact Chaldeans are Catholic. In my area, Detroit, and in Iraq, Chaldeans are known for helping there fellow family members, Aunts, Uncles, Cousins...the whole nine yards. Even though we are mostly hated by people outside of the Chaldean community, we are respected for sticking together as one ethnicity, and one extended family. I think that shows some honor amongst family.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by BabylontheGreat]

The amount of misinformation in this thread is pretty sickening, really. The Chinese government isn't simply uncivilized, but it's evil. It's human rights abuses have gained it that status, and such is not limited to its own citizens, but also citizens of nations it currently occupies, including Tibet and Taiwan. Most nations don't recognize because they don't want to get into a tussle with China. Whether people want to face it or not, China is a superpower. They have the largest army in the world, and their technology is advanced enough to give the US a run for its money. I abhor some of the things done here in the US (e.g. capitol punishment, the Patriot Act), but it's nothing like in China.

The Chinese government would never send an envoy to the Vatican no matter what the circumstances may be because the Roman Catholic Church is considered a cult there, just like Falun Gong, and not a religion. Cults are illegal in China. They have "freedom of religion," but only for religions the government approves. If an individual wants to be Catholic, then they must join the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, a schism from the Vatican, and many of their teachings are quite different from the Vatican. For one thing, they don't recognize the Vatican II council.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by xalex
Well Vatican is a state too. So if Blair died tomorrow

Why would china send an emassary to blairs funderal anyway?

Its called diplomacy.

On top of that China is trying to stop Taiwan's president from going.

Taiwan, according to teh chinese, is part of china, and the president of taiwan doesn't get to do whatever he wants.

Taiwan's part of China, so lets kill all the taiwanese?
Being civilized is restraining your power, even when you have the upper hand.

What about freedom and basic human dignity people?

So it went from 'the most uncivilized nation' to 'they're not nice'?

Most nations believe killing people is bad, but kill anyway. But if a nation believes killing is a good thing its whole new level barbarism.

Its one thing no liking the pope but another thing stopping some one to attend his funeral.

The latter is uncivilized.

Well the Pope did stop the Soviets from raping you.

Lets just pretend that the preist pedophilia disaster didn't occur for this one.

. I don't care if China doesn't go, but why should it tell Taiwan's President not to go.

Taiwan is part of china, thats chinese policy, and very few countries in teh world recognize taiwan as an independant country. Its like if there was a war in the US, and the losers went to florida, and siad 'we're independant', but no once recognized them as such. And now you have, say, the president of florida saying 'i am going to osama bin ladin's funeral' and the us president saying 'no, you're not allowed to'. See?According to China, Taiwain is still a province within china. Its a complex issue.

Why would US govt. say that since US gov't won't recognize Florida. By saying anything US govt would be recognizing Floirda's president is legitimate.

Now if I suddenly say I am the president of US, would US have a press release saying I am worng.

The whole thing is complex really, because china is /not/ part of the western world, and it has entirely independant moral standards. Sometimes those standards coincide with the west, sometimes they don't.

But to say that this piddling little nothingness is "the most uncivilized act by any government in recent times" is, quite simply, indefensible. If nothing else, china has commited much more serious acts against civilization on their own, let alone in the rest of the world.

No there are some universal moral standards civilized nation agree on.(e.g, genocide is bad, ppl should be trated like humans not slaves).

Those who don't agree are uncivilized, no matter how much subjective moral standards you are inputing.

To all those who think China is uncivilized:

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

Get a fundraiser together and hire a mercenary force or something to liberate China. Don't like them, get rid of them. Any questions?

China is perfectly civilized. I would wager that they have been "civilized" for more than 1,000 years.

The original question that started this thread could have been phased much better. A better question would have been "Do you think China is making a political mistake by not sending an official envoy to the Pope's funeral?"

I suspect that the discussion that would have ensued would have been a bit more civil. The problem, and it seems to be rapant on this board, is that certain individuals can't seem to resist the urge to insert imfammatory or insulting remarks or verbage in the title of their posts and threads. I suspect many people do this as a poor form of advertising, in hopes of attracting readers who will be drawn in by the thread title. Thats bad cricket.

I respect China's decision to not send an envoy. They have a well-defined national policy that they are not afraid to quote, and they are sticking to it, despite a lot of international criticism. Not too different then the US policy on Cuba.

However, I do think they are making a mistake on this, and it is yet another layer of the onion being peeled away so that the rest of the world can really see the dark and anti-social nature of the current Chinese communist government.

The Chinese are an enlightened, ancient people. Their current government, however, has cast a dark veil over those people.

China is the oldest civilisation on Earth. In that time they have become a civilised and intellectual nation. A nation that has dominated the world for several thousand years and now looks to be returning to its position.

Meanwhile in America we have the biggest Porn industry and lots of fat people.

Civilisation is all about values!

Citing this incident to prove that the Chinese government is uncivilised is a bit of a stretch. They've done plenty of other things much worse than this.

That being said, if the CCP doesn't want to attend the funeral, that's fine, it's their choice, but they have no right, and no ability to stop any Taiwanese authorities from going. President Chen attended, and the CCP can whine, cry and throw tantrums all they want; it won't change anything. In fact, it's quite amusing how the corrupt leaders of the biggest, baddest regime in the world act like 6 year old children in the political arena.

Using the "rogue U.S. state" example to justify the CCP's claims of ownership of Taiwan is a gross over-simplification of the issue. According to that logic, if Alaska rose up and took over the rest of the U.S, you should just accept it because they won, and I'm sorry but Pres. Bush, now retreated to Hawaii, can't visit Australia because Australia doesn't recognise the Communist Party of Alaska as the rightful government of the U.S. Bloody victory does not equal legitimacy. If it did, Poland and France should belong to Germany and Kuwait to Iraq. The CCP obtained government by violent revolution, and then promptly proceeded to rob, suppress, brainwash, persecute, imprison, torture and murder the very citizens which put it into power. They also never militarily took the island of Taiwan, which was recognized by the world as the Chinese government until three decades later when it was admitted that the country had permanently split and would never reunite. You might as well say that the U.S. is a part of the British Empire.

As stated by other posters, the only reason the world tolerates the CCP is because of their military strength and because everyone wants a piece of the China market pie. If this weren't the case, the U.S would let Taiwan declare independence in a flash, and China would just be another North Korea.

Taiwan is a province of China, just because it has never being ruled by the PRC does not mean it is not part of China, the country.

If democracy was ever instated in China, the Chinese rhetoric on Taiwan would increase 10 fold. Common misconception, the PRC wants to reunify Taiwan,

WRONG.

The people of China wants to reunify Taiwan. The only thing thats holding up Nationalism in China right now is the PRC's tight control. The Internet has not bred a new generation of Democracy activists, it has bred a new generation of Nationalists.

In fact, if you ask the Chinese youth, most will tell you that the Chinese government is justified in it's actions. Reason, simple, look at Russia, after the inception of Democracy, Russia has being sliding ever since.

Most Chinese see Gorbachev as a traitor, No Chinese leader is going to risk going down in Chinese history as a traitor to it's people. China has monuments of traitors that people use to spit on from it's dynasties.

EDIT: wecomeinpeace, you know very little of the Chinese civil war, the Nationalists under Chaing-Kai-Shek treated it's people much worse then the Communists. I speak this coming from a family with Chinese Nationalists background.



[edit on 8-4-2005 by rapier28]

uhhh...

do you actually think that bush / other president CARE about the pope???

its about politics...

hell, bush sat by the pres (or whatever they have) of iran...

Originally posted by rapier28
Taiwan is a province of China, just because it has never being ruled by the PRC does not mean it is not part of China, the country.

EDIT: wecomeinpeace, you know very little of the Chinese civil war, the Nationalists under Chaing-Kai-Shek treated it's people much worse then the Communists. I speak this coming from a family with Chinese Nationalists background.

I never stated that the Nationalists treated the Chinese well under their rule. They were corrupt crooks the lot of them, put into power by Triad money. The Chinese have been stepped on by every ruler in their 6000+ year history, from emperors, to the KMT and finally Mao, the Gang of Four and the CCP. But Mao and his mob promised liberation and finally delivered hell, particularly from '66 to '76 when Mao lost his marbles and launched the Cultural Rrevolution. And yes, they were worse than the KMT in what they did to the Chinese people, the culture and the nation as a whole. You say I know little...mmm...well, ok, I'll take that one on the chin. I don't claim to be an Uber expert, but you'd be surprised.

I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into another long debate about the Taiwan-China issue, God knows there's enough of those, and I'm a little confused as to exactly what your point is in your post, so I'll just reiterate the on-topic point: The CCP has no right to tell Taiwanese authorities what to do and where they can and cannot go. The only influence they can have over such is via threats of force, and tantrum-throwing in the U.N.

China has every right to on Taiwan, it's not the CCP's right, it is the right of 1.3 billion people to secure it's soveriegnty (spelling).

China has being stepped on by western forces who has tried to destroy it for the past 200 years. The Chinese people have long memories, the right of the PRC is in it's leadership of a strong China.

Taiwan is just another example of western colonialism interfearing in Chinese affairs. China will always secure it's borders and it's sphere of influence.

China has had good emperors in the past, if you study Chinese history carefully you will know that. The 2nd emperor of the Tang dynasty being the prime example. He led China to the forefront of the world, beating the Japanese for one.

(Ironically, it is because of that defeat that Japan then adapted Chinese culture into their warrior code and 600 years later used it to conquer China and Asia)

Originally posted by rapier28
China has every right to on Taiwan, it's not the CCP's right, it is the right of 1.3 billion people to secure it's soveriegnty (spelling).

China has being stepped on by western forces who has tried to destroy it for the past 200 years.

Taiwan is just another example of western colonialism interfearing in Chinese affairs. China will always secure it's borders and it's sphere of influence.

You're obviously in the mood for debating the cross-strait issue. You might want to check out this thread: Can China invade Taiwan. I think it's about 7 pages into it when it starts getting off the military issue and into the political/historical side. Good luck.

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
You're obviously in the mood for debating the cross-strait issue. You might want to check out this thread: Can China invade Taiwan. I think it's about 7 pages into it when it starts getting off the military issue and into the political/historical side. Good luck.

Actually, i don't really want to debate it, and i know about that thread.

I have only responded to the Taiwan question, not insitigated it.

Lets just kill it here.

Originally posted by rapier28
China has every right to on Taiwan, it's not the CCP's right, it is the right of 1.3 billion people to secure it's soveriegnty (spelling).

I don't know man...how about the right of the people in Taiwan....
and why is it the right of 1.3 B people?...most of them don't even live in Taiwan.

Maybe the people in Taiwan just keep their mouths shut or get the hell out and everything will be alright then?

Sheeeeeeeesh................. All this whining over nothing. Really people, if one person thinks that an entire civilization is at fault for not attending the death of the pope, then they have to realize that China's decisions are based on a small group of people... and not an entire civilization....xalex, I don't think that it is right to generalize about an entire civilizations actions by a small group of people's actions...... really.........