Things You May Not Know About "Hell"

a reply to: BernnieJGato

I am aware of the derivation of the word - a full explanation and defense of my theses took me 200+ pages of text and over two years of my time.

As for Gehenna, it is a physical place outside Jerusalem. You can visit it today. It hardly qualifies as "Hell."

If you read the creation account in Genesis properly, you will see that the cosmos/universe is a heirarchy

God

Cosmos

Angels

Stars

Planets

Earth

Man

Animals

Plants

etc.

It is not a dualistic "Heaven versus Hell" with man as a contested prize - at least in the beginning. After the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was eaten, only then did dualistic thinking set in in the mind of man. Good versus evil colors everything in our current reality...but it was not so in the beginning

originally posted by: 19Bones79
a reply to: Lazarus Short

What does it mean for all those near death experiences where the person took a trip to hell?

Garbage in.

Garbage out.

originally posted by: ketsuko
He'll is the absence of God; God is love. Draw your own conclusions.

God is love, therefore how could He toss people into "hell"? See Jeremiah 19:5.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

I am aware of the derivation of the word

really then why did you say that Gehenna was hebrew. it's not, it's the greek translation of Gehinnom.

Gehenna – from the Hebrew, a valley outside Jerusalem where trash and dead bodies were burned, and since it is a place in the real world, it is hardly “hell.”

It hardly qualifies as "Hell."

i didn't say it did, i said it was a metaphor.

from websters,

met·​a·​phor ˈme-tə-ˌfȯr also -fər Synonyms of metaphor
1 : met·​a·​phor ˈme-tə-ˌfȯr also -fər Synonyms of metaphor 1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money) broadly : figurative language compare simile 2 : an object, activity, or idea treated as a metaphor : symbol sense e
2 : an object, activity, or idea treated as a metaphor : symbol sense

and i don't know what bible you've been reading or where you go to church, but i got to tell ya God absolutely believes in a duallistic Heaven versus Hell that's why he put the boot in lucifer's rear end.

and yes in a way it is a prize for lucifer cause the more people / souls he gets to turn from God the more he hurts his father. and your right there was no hell at first, it was lucifer who got butt hurt and started the whole thing.

you might want to read what is written before you all get all offened claiming it took you two years of your time to come up with the OP.

which is kinda slow if you ask me.

a reply to: schuyler

Everything and everyone is bound by this constraint, there are no absolutes, only perception.

A utopian society is one which finds balance in all aspects of life, the struggle we currently endure is that eternal one between chaos and order. Structure is important when governing the masses, we either live by an agreed set of laws or the rule of the jungle. The reality is, through everyman lies the desire of something in between, governance to achieve balance. However, right now our leaders are implementing order over chaos. Freedom of expression will be reserved for the elites, while the poor man chases their guided imagination into the abyss.

a reply to: BernnieJGato

I said it was Hebrew because it came from Hebrew. You're correct, I should have used the Hebrew form of the word.

Now prove to me that Satan/Lucifer is the Lord of Hell, or that "hell" is part of his kingdom. You might want to re-read the first two chapters of Job before you answer.

Since you asked, I used an ordinary King James Bible to settle my trilemma: was eternal conscious torment in "hell" correct, or annihilation, or the salvation of all? I wanted to avoid bias, so did not much consult Bibles which did not use the word "hell." As for church, my theology is my own. I stand by what I said about hierarchy. IMHO, Satan gets nothing, as all humans are saved in the fullness of time - that is how God becomes All in all, as First Corinthians states.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: ketsuko
He'll is the absence of God; God is love. Draw your own conclusions.

God is love, therefore how could He toss people into "hell"? See Jeremiah 19:5.

Plenty of people don't love Him and reject Him. You get what you ask for. It is pretty simple.

To clear things up, and backup what I say with Scripture:

A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos – therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. The Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell” being involved, i.e., no “hell and earth” or “heaven and hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated seven times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:4,10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell, with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell, but is bound to the Earth. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.
6. The Law that God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

7. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.

8. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit...and non-existence. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the center or marginal reference column.

9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” (hidden, covered and unknown), was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

10. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.

11. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those who are thought to be sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

12. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

13. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

14. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Literary descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

15. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to annihilate them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

16. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

17. God is both willing AND able to save all – something denied by both Calvinists and Arminians. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

18. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire...or as I like to call it, Godfire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

19. If God’s Fire is for refining, and for baptism as John the Baptist stated in Matthew 3:11, then that which is burned up must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

20. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these four refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. Two of the terms come from pagan Greek mythology. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

21. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an overlay, an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

22. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

originally posted by: Lazarus Short

originally posted by: ketsuko
He'll is the absence of God; God is love. Draw your own conclusions.

God is love, therefore how could He toss people into "hell"? See Jeremiah 19:5.

people reject God. how can He let them into heaven? they spend their lives not wanting God; they aren't interested in spending eternity with Him.
God controls the gates to Heaven and Hell; we choose with our lives, which gate we will go through.

my understanding is that there are several bad places. Tartarus is the holding place for evil spirits. Sheol I think is the holding place for evil people. this is where the rich man was when he asked Abraham for Lazarus' help.
the final place for the wicked will be the lake of fire Hell. Satan and his cohorts will be thrown there, as well as wicked humans.
I think people are making this more complicated than it need be.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

If there’s no eternal judgement then what does the Bible teach that Jesus died to save us from?

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Every religion uses different labels to describe the same thing. Hell denotes negativity to our minds. But that negativity was employed to overcome stagnation in our journeys. If it were not for hell none of us could attain enlightenment/salvation. For the lake of fire and brimstone refines us into gold (aka beings full of light). Having experienced all goods and evils in the tree of knowledge. We will then see emptiness in all things (no longer desiring to taste apple aka sensations). No longer having any desire to re-enter (rebirth) in the lower realms. We will then attain higher levels in one of the many more realms (aka universes) that exist. Everything exists in perfection, even hell.

Hell is real. been there at least twice that I remember when I was young. It wasn't a big town when I was there, but it must be crowded now with all the people that supposedly went there since i was a kid. It is somewhere downstate where the trolls are I think.

a reply to: Lazarus Short

Now prove to me that Satan/Lucifer is the Lord of Hell, or that "hell" is part of his kingdom. You might want to re-read the first two chapters of Job before you answer.

why? it's plain to see your mind is made up. i should just leave you alone and let the Holy Spirit weigh on your conscious.
but before i do a little food for thought.

you do realize that the book of Job shows that as to put it in your words shows the dualistic Heaven versus Hell.
satan was cast out of haven to earth and was given rule over it and the air and only answered to God, who could summon him at will. he tried to take away Jobs faith

here from the the first chapter of Job,

Job 1 :12 New American Standard Bible
12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your [g]power; only do not reach out and put your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

does that not sound like ol Beelzebub was given permission to tournament Job, but not harm him physically or kill him , but take away all that he has. just what is hell? is it not said to be a place of torment, a place where their worm dieth not.

and this from Chapter 2,

Job 2; 4-6 New American Standard Bible
4 Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has, he will give for his life. 5 However, reach out with Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face!” 6 So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your [e]power, only spare his life.”

again does that not sound like permission was given to torment Job, this time not just emotionally or mentally also physically but not kill him.
you do realize that there is fire that does not produce smoke or light, and that some skin irritation burn like your on fire right. and the fire is not quenched.

then this from chapter 10

Job 10:21-22

21 Before I go—and I shall not return— To the land of darkness and deep shadow, 22 The land of utter gloom like darkness itself, Of deep shadow without order, And it shines like darkness.”

is hell not described in the new testament as a dark place, and in the old testament sheol has been described more as a dark place of fire and torment more than any thing else in several books. in Numbers when korah tried to get Israel to rebel, Moses said that Yahweh would split the earth and send korah and his follower to hell and that's exactly what is said to have happened but they were sent there alive. in Deuteronomy Moses says that shoel is a place where Gods anger burns
as a flame in it's depths. Isaiah preached hell fire.

now i will say this, the hebrew bible has inconsistencies in what shoel is believed to be. that one of the things the pharisees and the sadducees argued about.

a couple more things from Job thing from Job, after reading all of the 14th chapter, we see this,

Job 14 : 19-22

19 Water wears away stones, Its torrents wash away the dust of the earth; So You destroy a man’s hope. 20 You forever overpower him and he departs; You change his appearance and send him away. 21 His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it; Or they become insignificant, and he does not perceive it. 22 However, his [m]body pains him, And his soul mourns for himself.”

notice verse, 21 and 22. does that not sound like some of the descriptions of hell, does torment not include physically, emotional, and mental pain for ones self

and then this,

Job 40 :10-13

10“Adorn yourself with pride and dignity, And clothe yourself with honor and majesty. 11 Let out your outbursts of anger, And look at everyone who is arrogant, and humble him. 12 Look at everyone who is arrogant, and humble him, And trample down the wicked [c]where they stand. 13 Hide them together in the dust; Imprison [d]them in the hidden place.

notice 12 and 13, doesn't sound like a place of punishment, a place away form those that are not prideful, wicked and have no faith.

here it is from the king james,

Job 40 :10-13
10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. 11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. 12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. 13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

you asked another member if God loves humans, why would he condemn them to hell, i ask you why he wouldn't?
do you think he didn't love the only other beings he created mentioned in the bible? the first of them were cast into the abyass, the place that satan will rule when he and the one that lost the rebellion will go when the judgement comes.

or send his only son to be the final blood sacrifice for our sins, and as some believe his son went to hell to offer the same to those that had died before he became the sacrifice.

remember Gods thoughts are higher than our thoughts, his ways are higher than our ways.

that all for me in this thread.

oh just a side note, the king james was transcribed for a man who was head of a church which was started by by another for the fact that he was the crown by men and is full of ministrations. talk about being prideful.

never thought much of bibles that someone put their name on like their the sole authority on what God is saying.

Best friend's ex was a mean, mean man. He recently coded during a bout with severe illness and kidney failure. He claims he saw hell, went there. Whatever it was that happened to him, it scared the bejesus out of him and changed him.

To interject some uncalled-for levity to this conversation, I'd like to bring Lucian of Samosata (roughly 125-180AD) to the attention of inquiring minds.

In particular, his Dialogues of the Dead which may be read at Project Gutenberg: Works of Lucian (Vol.1). Most of these short dialogues take place in and about Hades.

Lucian is the father of Sarcastic wit. He (a Hellenized Syrian of the Roman Empire) applied the pagan Greek penchant for logical analysis to the received wisdom of Greek Mythology, to expose some of their logical inconsistencies to humourous ends. (Ones enjoyment of his writings may be proportional to ones familiarity with Greek Mythology.)

He also wrote A True Story (AKA "A True History"). This is the first piece of Science Fiction (includes a trip to the Moon & interactions with its inhabitants).

(why are you injecting sarcastic pagan satyre into my discussion of Christian Theology!?!?)
Lucian made a career of mocking the received (pagan) classical world and showing how ridiculous much of it was, yet THAT was the world in which Christianity began. It's possible that he hastened the demise of "the old ways" (paganism). A 150 years later, Constantine the Great first tolerates Christianity (Edict of Milan), and later causes the Nicene Creed to be determined. Understanding begins with knowledge.

...and Lucian is funny.

Its either as bad or as good as it CAN be at this very moment...Hell Yeah..where are You?

Lazarus Short !
Great post and well written.

"you did a hell of a job."
This is a odd use of the word hell?

a reply to: ketsuko

Whatever it was that happened to him, it scared the bejesus out of him and changed him.

Lot of similar reports from people that have died and made it back, does not happen with everyone. Its like they get a reminder of what life is all about and the things that matter.