Man Sucker-Punches Another At Chicago Liquor Store, Victim Shoots Him Dead

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: AaarghZombies

That's the first rule of gun safety in Texas. Where I come the first rule of gun safety is that keep the safety on till you're in position

This is 100% BS, you never leave the safety on with the gun you are actually carrying for protection. Hunting with a rifle I can agree, but self defense pistol, never, ever, ever. It will get you killed more times than not.

there is an augment to be made that if the safety was on and somehow the badguy got your gun he might not know how to use it.

i walk around with always 1 in the pipe but safety is always on

a reply to: infolurker

There's a lot to unpack here...

I watched the video several times. The guy who punched the shooter (hereinafter referred to as "Hole-y One") just knocked the holy hell out of the shooter. I expected to see a kidney punch or something initially, but Hole-y One literally put the guy on the floor trying to cold-cock him! Then he advanced, taking a threatening stance, and some other dude talks him down. Then the shooter just walks to the door, steps outside the door, pulls out a pistol, looks to quickly check it, turns and fires at Hole-y One, and heads for the hills.

Something just don't sit right with me about this.

The shooter was a slim fellow; Hole-y One was pretty big and buff. This looks to be the result of two people who know each other... maybe Hole-y One was bullying the shooter or something. The shooter also didn't act like someone familiar with using a gun for self-protection... the only way he was able to get a shot off was by retreating. He had to remove the gun from a carrying case and check it over, I suspect to make sure the safety was off. If I ever have to pull a gun on someone, the gun will whip out, I know where the safety is and can turn it off with a thumb flick while it is being drawn, and the gun will go off the split second it achieves aim. Figure one, two seconds at most before that bullet goes flying.

The video doesn't say what went down before hand, but I would suspect that the shooter knew Hole-y One and had been being bullied before. He probably bought a gun for this one reason. He was close enough that he didn't need aim, really. The fact that he obviously went for center mass and still hit Hole-y One's upper chest off to the side says he was not a super marksman.

No, this looked to be one of those millions of people who have been buying guns because of all the recent violence going down.

Self-defense... this was not self-defense. Self defense would apply if he had fired from the ground while Hole-y One was threatening him, but he was already outside the door and turned back. Hole-y One was not following him. Legally, we just watched second-degree murder... intentional but not premeditated. The legal response would be to report the attack to the police and Hole-y One would be looking at a pretty serious assault and battery charge. As it is, the shooter is looking at Murder 2.

But, the police haven't charged anyone. They seem to be taking a pretty blase attitude. That tells me they likely knew Hole-y One and this was to be expected of him. In that case, the shooter might get off without chargers even. Police can get pretty pragmatic sometimes.

Now, all that said, I just spent the last thirty minutes desperately trying to feel sorry for Hole-y One. Try hard as I might, I just couldn't do it. If I were sitting on a jury, I'm not sure I could convict the shooter in good conscience. Yeah, I know, that sounds terrible... but sometimes one must look at the bigger picture. One less bully walking the streets scaring others... maybe give the shooter a medal if it went down like that?

As far as Hole-y One "knowing who shot him and why," sounds like someone didn't watch the video. He was alive for a little while before he bled out (apparently the bullet missed the heart and aorta; it did remove a section of his back shoulder though). He knew what happened; he knew who did it. He literally tried to stand but succeeded in only rolling himself to the middle of the hallway.

So in this redneck's opinion, the shooter just committed second-degree murder, but probably did a service to the community in the process. Moral of the story: shoving little guys around can have worse consequences than shoving big guys around... little guys tend to be armed more often in my experience.

TheRedneck

a reply to: AaarghZombies

A couple of points, just in case you ever try to get someone like me in a gunfight.

I do not pull a gun until I am ready to use it. I do not wait for any intimidation factor to kick in. As soon as my opponent sees the flash of metal, my decision is already made. There's too much chance of things going wrong between the time I draw and the time I fire, so that time period is as short as possible.

That means the safety is usually off before I draw... at best, it is flicked off as I draw.

I will not be shooting for kneecaps. Ever. There's no time to accurately aim, and that's a much smaller target that I could miss. If I have to draw a gun on another person, that means I have tried everything I can to get away already and everything I tried has failed. I will be shooting for center mass. If my opponent is wearing a vest, the bullets i use will still knock his butt backward ten feet, giving me ample opportunity to fire again. I have trained myself to fire two bullets without thinking, so if my opponent staggers backwards without releasing a lot of red liquid, my next move is already determined: immediately fire two more shots to the head, taking the extra half-second needed to aim better.

In other words, if I draw a gun on someone, one of us will not survive. That's just how it is. I have had more than one person brandish a gun at me... I always respond, "You get one free shot; better make it count." Usually that causes them to decide against suicide by redneck.

That sounds like I am some sort of Rambo with an itchy trigger finger; I'm not. In my entire life, I have drawn on another human being once. I have yet to have to fire; that one time the guy decided he didn't want to be anywhere near where we were, faster than I could point the gun. I'm actually proud of that record; I just intend to keep being able to brag about it and too many man-made orifices make that sorta difficult.

That is reality. Your version will get you killed if you try to use it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TTU77

No , It was Self Defense .

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: TTU77

No , It was Self Defense .

100% unacceptable.

a punch back or Pepper spray is defense. this is murder

a reply to: TTU77

So , your just OK with this Guy Following the Guy he just Sucker punched in the Head out the Door and into the Street where he tries to Maybe Eff him Up again or Possibly Kill him with his Own Concealed Weapon ? With no Security or Cops Around the Guy was on his Own . Self Defense .

originally posted by: Zanti Misfit
a reply to: TTU77

So , your just OK with this Guy Following the Guy he just Sucker punched in the Head out the Door and into the Street where he tries to Maybe Eff him Up again or Possibly Kill him with his Own Concealed Weapon ? With no Security or Cops Around the Guy was on his Own . Self Defense .

He belongs in jail.

How can you condone murder. Anyone who feels similar is no better than either of these guys. cant you see that. you have no room to jdge or stand on higher ground. the heart of man is desperately wicked, let us not judge, certainly never kll

a reply to: Zanti Misfit

It was Self Defense

No, once the victim retreated it was no longer self-defense. At that point it became second degree murder. Had he fired when he was on the ground, or when he was getting up, it would have been self-defense. Once he exited the building and the guy who couldn't keep all his blood inside wasn't following him, it was no longer self-defense.

All murder, even in self-defense, is unlawful. Self-defense is a legal defense against murder that can be invoked when one is in imminent threat to his life. There was an imminent threat when he was sucker-punched; there was an imminent threat when he was on the floor; there was an imminent threat when the sucker-puncher was standing over him in a threatening stance. But once he was up and leaving, and the sucker-puncher was no longer trying to follow, there was no imminent threat.

Even if he had no "duty to retreat," once he chose to and was able to retreat it does not matter. All that matters is if there was an imminent threat at the precise moment he fired the gun. In this case, there was not. When someone says you have "no duty to retreat," that just means you can stand your ground without losing your right to self-defense... it does not mean you can retreat, come back armed, and try again.



a reply to: TTU77

a punch back or Pepper spray is defense. this is murder

In most states in the USA, a gun is just as legal as a punch back.

The shooter was much smaller than his assailant. The idea that someone can take on another angry person much bigger than they are in a fist fight is ludicrous. Neither is self-defense limited to specific types of weapons like pepper spray. I'm sure the guy would have preferred to be pepper sprayed or punched as opposed to what happened to him, but that is irrelevant. A person is allowed to use whatever force they reasonably deem necessary to protect themselves if under attack.

If someone really does not want to be shot, all they have to do is not attack or threaten others. People do not get to attack others and then cry foul when they don't like how the others fight back.

It was only not self-defense because the victim tried to retreat and was able to. Had he fired earlier, before he retreated, it would have indeed been self-defense. As adults in society, people are expected to understand the concept of not going around hitting others; anyone who refuses understand that is at high risk of getting just as dead as this bully.

TheRedneck

Shooter will be charged with murder in the 2nd.

There was not any current threat to his life. Sure, he was just assaulted, but the now assuming-room-temperature idiot was on other side of the room, not moving towards the shooter. Bad shoot all day.

originally posted by: Iconic
Shooter will be charged with murder in the 2nd.

There was not any current threat to his life. Sure, he was just assaulted, but the now assuming-room-temperature idiot was on other side of the room, not moving towards the shooter. Bad shoot all day.

IDK i think the guy is lucky to be alive after that punch.

a reply to: TTU77

I do agree, he belongs in jail but he decided to mess with the wrong guy and doesn't' have to worry about anything anymore.

I fail to see anyone actually condoning murder. When you take a CCP/CCW class, which I assume you have not, you are taught that if you are in fear for your life, you take action to eliminate the threat.

Again, I am not condoning murder. As bad as this is for both parties involved, this teaches a lesson, if you are about to do something and you think for one second "Hey, this guy might have a gun and fight back and possibly kill me", you might not do it. If you are willing to risk your life or somebody else life then you deserve what you have coming. Maybe not getting killed but at least the brakes beat off of you. You best believe, if I am standing in line somewhere and I get sucker punched, that guy better be quick to get away or he would be wishing he never got out of bed that morning.

He got exactly what he deserved. If someone sucker punches me like that, they're getting lead to the head.

a reply to: infolurker


bang bang
thug hit the ground
bang bang
thug f---ed around
bang bang
thug lost a round
bang bang
the victim shot him down

one day standing in line
thug struck from behind
victim didn't whine
said here's a little friend of mine

bang bang
he shot the thug
bang bang
didn't give him a hug
bang bang
instead gave him a slug
bang bang
one less thug

bang bang
that beautiful sound
bang bang
thug f---ed around
bang bang
thug lost a round
bang bang
the victim shot him down

originally posted by: TTU77
you cant kill someone for punching you in the face.
that guy was an ahole and should go to jail, but the other guy is a murderer.

I don't think you understand the law very well.

It turns out this case was a very poor demonstration of justified use of a firearm for defense.

But nevertheless, you CAN kill someone for punching you in the face....if they continue to do so unabated, leaving someone no out, no means of escape, and the very size/strength/capability of the attacker (or multiple attackers) means that they present a lethal threat to a person armed with a firearm.

There are too many cases to illustrate my point, but you can very easily educate yourself on this subject. We just saw a very high profile example in Kenosha Wisconsin not long ago. I would submit that in *this* video the initial aggressor actually hit/did more damage to his target than any of the thugs that assaulted Kyle Rittenhouse. In that case though, the aggressors didn't know when to quit, kept chasing their prey (despite Rittenhouse repeatedly trying to flee and defuse the situation, and gave the defender NO OTHER CHOICE than to use his weapon, or possibly suffer severe injury of death.

TL;DR real life is much more nuanced than claiming "you can't kill someone for being punched in the face". Context is everything.

a reply to: infolurker

see thats not self defense thats murder

he didnt react within the 1sec your allowed for self defense with deadly force

he got up walked out turned then shot him

thats not a self defense reaction , thats a thought about revenge

About the safety being on/off. That is a very debatable subject, with lots of good points on both sides, worthy of its own thread.

IMHO there is no "one size fits all" blanket policy that is right for everyone. It depends a lot on your training, holster configuration, gear, etc. Some would say if you're survival is hinging on the split second it takes to disengage a thumb safety on your pistol, you probably already lost the engagement. LEO often are the exception to this, because they are many many times in situations where split seconds count, but for everyone else, you have to weigh that against the real possibility of ND.

Also, not every firearm even has a safety, for example my SigSauer P320 ain't got one. No mechanical safety, but a "biological" one (i.e. my right index finger)

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: infolurker

see thats not self defense thats murder

he didnt react within the 1sec your allowed for self defense with deadly force

he got up walked out turned then shot him

thats not a self defense reaction , thats a thought about revenge

Completely agree.

While it may be emotionally satisfying to approve of what the shooter did, legally....it's probably not going to go unpunished..

a reply to: BernnieJGato

a reply to: SleeperHasAwakened

it looks to me that the thug was robbing him, if you watch you see him pick something off the counter that the victim dropped. looks like some sort of bag. thug didn't have anything in his hands before he sucker punched him.

pretty sure you can cap a robber.

THUG LIVES MATTER!!

not.