On the Intensity of our Faith - duality of Joys and Dangers of Extreme Rejection of the World.

Hi ATS,

When I was younger I was a tearaway, a rebel & a fool, into drugs, drinking & general debauchery, and it ultimately sank me into a dark place. Now there were corollaries which meant that my experience of life, and my rejection of what appeared as a dull, irrelevant, 'normal' life, were somewhat to be expected - but I won't delve into that here. Suffice to say, I deeply regret my conduct in my youth, all manner of sins haunt me to this day, even though intellectually I understand that in my redemption, my sins are cast as far away from the sight of the LORD as the East is from the West. I'm still working on whether it's possible to forgive myself fully, when I know that for some people, those stupid actions are still unforgiven. And so, in my despair at that time, I cried out to God - and He met with me, forgave me, and assured me that I was redeemed, that I would rise again at the last day, that Heaven awaited when my earthly days are done. I was & remain overwhelmed when I think on these things, the dreams which He sent to guide me, the people whom He caused to be in my life thereafter, and the events He choreographed to convince me of His plan & purpose.

As I was growing in faith, I joined a church which was deeply committed to a rejection of negative worldly principles, values & behaviours, to the extent that radio, television & drinking were out of the question - the replacement for these activities was a combination of productive work, brotherhood/ sisterhood, scripture, theology, music, dancing, cooking, fellowship meals, crafts & excursions into nature. Everyone lived in communal houses - which were loving, supportive & edifying places, filled with committed disciples - and the random folk who came along & showed an interest, whether for five minutes, five years, or unto death. This church did many things right - they had nailed the need for discipleship, hard work & brotherhood/ sisterhood, the joy of fellowship, live music & sound production, large scale festival events & so on. These people were absolute rocks to me in my hour of need, and I'm eternallly grateful to many of them, several of the most important being no longer with us. I look forward to meeting with them again one day.

The only problem with this church was that a root of bitterness had grown up amongst some of the many people who lived in the community, many of whom were born into it, some of whom resented it deeply, yet felt they had no voice - they were silenced by effective group dynamic control at the behest of some of the leaders, who had become cynical in their ways, and perhaps didn't quite hold the vision in the same way as they once had, or in the same way as many, many of the others did. The root of bitterness eventually led to a fallout, a scandal, and a feud, which effectively destroyed this once vibrant church in a matter of a few short years, a church that had been built up across several generations. I think the main problem which was at the root of these issues, was an identity crisis. The church had slightly lost sight of what it had become to the people who needed them - they were a place of redemption, restoration & commissioning.. But the commissioning, and the sending out that should have occurred, was very limited, and people felt trapped within a structure that they had little affinity for. Don't get me wrong - for many people, it was exactly what was needed, as an antidote to a way of living that had turned empty, hollowed out, dark & desperate. I was one of those fortunate ones who really caught the vision, in a deep way - but I was later conflicted by the apparency of the conflict which was brewing under the surface, and eventually I left, having found a wife while I was there, with whom I'm still together - we are the happy parents of two wonderful sons, who respect our deep faith, though they don't necessarily share its intensity or the certainty that was forged in that wonderful place, when there was still wonder to be had.

Over the years, I have thought deeply about what happened with that church, and when the scandal & feud broke out, it literally broke my heart & unseated me from the security of identity that I had forged through membership, and later a looser affiliation, yet always with deep appreciation. I feel that they should have seen sooner the crisis of younger members who felt they couldn't identify with what their parents had devoted their lives to, and that there should have been more formal support for those who wanted to move out into the world & maintain that looser affiliation - sadly it wasn't available. There was little 'ministry' or active support for the kids, who were kind of left to their own devices during long meetings, who witnessed frequently emotive and sometimes even scary events (this was a real church which moved in the power of the Spirit, and at times there would be spontaneous demonic manifestations from people who were visiting, who were perturbed by the holiness of the atmosphere when worship was ongoing in a powerful way). These kids grew bitter, and they were the force which ultimately brought down the organisation, because of awful comments - both truth & lies - which were slung around as the claws came out. There were real problems with some of the leadership, but from the tone of some of these comments all over social media, you'd have thought they'd been in an internment camp in North Korea, as opposed to a vibrant, loving church with a few key problems, typical in many large church organisations across the globe.

The only factor which perhaps could have been done differently in general terms, was perhaps a more gracious attitude towards those who did not want to give up the world completely. There was a real push for discipleship, for growth, for productive work which enriched the community so that more discipleship & growth could happen. Those who were uncertain about what they wanted to give, or to give up, were sometimes treated with suspicion, rather than grace. That is my only criticism of the church membership. A few of the leaders were bad eggs. But overall, as a major national Christian news media organisation concurred, the church shouldn't have been forced into closure by what happened - after all, redemption is the key point of everything we do. The church could have recovered, and some say it was a cynical move by the church leadership to shut down the entire operation "If we can't have it, nobody can". I don't know if that holds water, I wasn't close enough to the leadership to know. I do know that many of the true leaders stayed, and remain, while the church is unwound both legally & financially, a work which is still ongoing. Many members have stayed, to shepherd the church gracefully into its formal closure, rather than abandon ship. I still have contact with many of them, and I respect them deeply, and indeed, I have love for many of those I know personally.

And so - there is a duality when it comes to the intensity of our faith, and the depth with which we reject negative worldly values/vices. It can be a blessed relief to come to a place of total purity - as far as humanly possible. That was the case for me - I needed sanctuary, and I found it. I was devastated when the whole thing folded. For others, it is a cold place, where they are unsettled by the depth with which they are expected to commit - those who feel trapped become bitter.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Hi FITO.
Am just another deceiver, who knows no truth.
Am not a Christian, so please forgive my pretentious approach.
Am just another Know-It-All-Know-Nothing. ( KIAKN ) ... LoL !!

Do you like thought-experiments ?

What if God : completely, and totally, forgave you of all of your sins ?
All of our sins ?

What if God wanted you to live as wholly forgiven ?
Free of shame, regret, and any ideas that emanate from the past, that we cannot further adjust ?

What if God wanted you to be free of negative weights, and just Love, play, and be in the moment of bliss ?

What if God : wanted you to have the same level of inner-chattiness, and treat yourself as gentle ;
as you would a little curious child ?

Why do we not treat ourselves : as gently as we would as a sweet child ?

How gentle does God want us to treat ourselves, in every moment ?

What if you were totally, and completely forgiven ?
Why would God want you to not be guilt-free, and to stop torturing yourself emotionally ?

Imagine a FITO : where God observes, and is pleased : because you are deeply happy, and helping those that you want to help ?

What if God : wanted you to experience one sole day of bliss, where you basked total self-forgiveness ?

If God forgives you : then why not forgive yourself ?

Many years ago I did something that was, shall we say, very bad. No one seriously injured but it was bad. Upon reflection I understood my sin and asked the Lord for forgivness.

Then feeling guilt over the years I repeatedly asked the Lord again and again to forgive me. Then one night while in prayer I was startled to hear a great voice answer my prayer. It was loud and authoritative.

"Whats this? So long ago you asked me to forgive you and I readily did so because I could see your heart that you were truly sorry."
"Then again a few years back you once again asked me to forgive you, and then again and again and again for the same exact thing!"
It was indeed a shock to me to hear something like what I was indeed hearing... Then...
That loud voice continued.

"Am I a liar? Don't you believe I have forgiven you? Why do you come to me repeatedly with the same request when you truly know you are forgiven?"

I never mentioned that sin again to the Lord. Now I believe Him.
This truly did happen to me DavidsHope/D'Andrew

Sounds like an awesome church/community. What was it called? I'd love to join something like that. Can you think of any others like that which are still going strong?

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Man I want you to read your opener back to yourself. Read as
the rantings of an insane religious zealot. Slowly increase the
intensity as you move thru your own story. And imagine yourself
snapping and going unconscious at the end.

There is a very important verse in the Bible that I'm positive applies
to our commitment to God. This verse is a simple warning to those
who embark seriously on any spiritual journey. Even Christianity itself.

23 Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.
Prov 4; 23

I believe the word heart being used here is referring to the mind.
I've seen even Christianity drive people to a mental break down.
I don't see this taught to new Christians any where. And it should
be taught initially to everyone. Be of sound mind and body and
take it slow, learn to walk first, there is no rush. Because this
stuff ain't the joke the world tries to make of it. It's powerful
and anyone can lose their mind to it. And losing ones mind in
religion is rarely retrievable. I hope you get where I'm going
with this.

I always enjoy your posts and just saw an opportunity to relate
this as it could be important to anyone.