What does the west hop[e to achieve helping Ukraine

originally posted by: Xtrozero
Ukraine is Russia, has always been Russia, and needs to be part of Russia again...

Russia begs to disagree with you since the leaders of Russia, Belarus and Ukraine agreed on The end of USSR existence with the “setting up of lawfully constituted democratic… independent states… on the basis of mutual recognition of and respect for State sovereignty”.

But I suppose Putin has forgotten just as well as you.

originally posted by: merka

But I suppose Putin has forgotten just as well as you.

Reread my post. It isn't what I think, its their latest reason to invade. Even RT and others will admit here that Ukraine is actually Russia.

a reply to: MisguidedAngel

I don't think you understand what the launch codes are. It's not like the nukes are hard-wired to only work if you type in a code. They're just for authenticating the order to launch coming down from the president or general secretary. Those codes were no longer necessary once the Soviet high command ceased to exist, and even if they were then Ukraine could have just installed new computers or whatever.

So they could easily have used them. And I don't know who had official ownership of them, probably no one, but possession is nine tenths of the law. And it turned out to be a huge mistake to give away those weapons, but then everyone was more naive in the 90's I guess.

originally posted by: MisguidedAngel

originally posted by: scrounger

originally posted by: MisguidedAngel

originally posted by: 13ssA
a reply to: gortex

Expansionist Russia? That is quite a strong word considering the fact that the last time it happened was over 70 years ago and since that time Russia only shrunk in size.

Also, are you sure Russia caused the problem? Wasn't the West meddling in Ukrainian politics and quite literally funding it's military? I don't think you are being objective here.

Now of these people are being objective that think its all Russia at fault.

sigh.. for the hundreth time.. RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE... so COMMON SENSE it is their fault.. but lets see your convoluted logic.

It all started with the US meddling in Ukrainian politics,

US "meddled" in their government no more than russia did.. in fact if you care to LOOK AT THE HISTORY the ukrainians DIDNT WANT TO BE PART OF RUSSIA or communism anymore. the government tried to go back to russia and the PEOPLE didnt want it.. but please go on

like you said. Once the US got an in a new government they moved right into Ukraine,

really? show me EXACTLY WHICH part of "the government moved in"? cant find any US military bases, buildings, ect outside of an embassy that is US soil.. let see how more silly your arguments go

started arming and training Ukrainian army

wow we get a FACT out of you.. well done.. but guess you missed where they were ASKED TO BE THERE.. oh and they were TRAINING THEIR MILITARY, not basing troops there . hmmmm

and who knows what all else they were doing,

yes who knows. do you? if so EXACTY WHAT were they doing? was it bad, good, what? just throwing out this statement proves NOTHING and has no value.. moving on




most likely getting Ukraine to introduce all the new laws that targeted Ukrainian minorities in Eastern Ukraine.

if your saying "most likely" then YOU HAVE NO PROOF.. in short your being a ranting fool.. i can prove where russia (the one you saying is in the right) is comitting GENOCIDE on "minorities" and even their own people who dont follow the communist line. btw russia was actively participating in a CIVIL WAR in parts of ukraine where SOME people were attempting to break up ukraine ILLEGALLY by force.

Had the US not got involved with the coup like they did this war never happens.

um again EXACTY HOW is USA responsible for RUSSIA ILLEGALLY INVADING A SOVERN COUNTRY?

also it was not a "coup" but the UKRAINIAN (for good, bad or both) CHOOSING another government.
one NOT COMMUNIST or socialist.

in fact the leaders (again right or wrong, shady or not) were ELECTED , not the military taking over. the definition of a "coup".

in short you CANNOT LEGALLY justify russia invading A SOVERN NATION .

you just support it.

hitler, stalin, imperial japan and NK would love you for your support

scrounger

It's "sovereign" just so you know

when one has to try playing the "grammar police" card right out of the gate you clearly showing you cant debate or defend your position. so go with an overused and does not change what the fact that russia invaded a sovereign country. moving on

And why do you keep using this word "sovereign"?

because you (and others) seem to IGNORE THIS FACT that makes the russian invasion ILLEGAL from get go.. moving on

Pretty much every country the US has ever invaded is a SOVEREIGN COUNTRY.

ok lets stop (know you cant but can hope) with the broad statements and give SPECIFICS when the US invaded someone that was CLEARLY AND / OR ILLEGALLY WRONG. so we can debate and/or compare apples to apples.

Off the top of your head can you even name 2 or 3 Countries that aren't sovereign countries?

sigh, again SPECIFICS to which this question applies to current situation.. this statement isnt even "broad brush" but just ranting. moving on

You said...

"Russia invaded Ukraine so common sense its their fault"

yes i did, others here did, world leaders did. so prove WHY IT WAS LEGAL TO DO SO or even more to the point why it ISNT their fault


So with that logic every single country the US has invaded in the past 100 years (with the exception of Japan maybe) is the USAs fault?

AGAIN SPECIFICS/ SPECIFIC CASES... you cant say "was all legal" because no doubt some were wrong.. but unless we can look at each case how can we know?

Must be because I haven't seen any country invading the US in the last 100 years.

sigh AGAIN (since you keep saying the same theme) SPECIFIC CASES. along with for example nazi germany NEVER INVADED the USA in WWI and WWII.. so does that make our actions there and "invading" illegal? man your blinders and application of "one of these things is not like the other" logic to defend your point has gotten beyond unbelievable to the point of just a raving fool.

Was the US bombing and invading a SOVEREIGN COUNTRY IN IRAQ LEGAL?

in gulf war one and two... YES . in gulf war two it was technically extension of the cease fire of one because sadam did not abide by parts of the UN agreement.. but even on that there is debate .

overall you postings have NOT SHOWN how russia invasion was legal or justified in any way
your only points you keep harping about is

a. trying to deflect with broad non specific statements that are multiple situations that are NOT SPECFICALLY mentioned.

which leads to

b. trying to use "because XX person did it so this person (or in this case country) its ok to do so"

even a 4 year old gets JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE DID A WRONG /ILLEGAL ACT DOES NOT JUSTIFY SOMEONE ELSE DOING IT.

in conclusion lets use your "logic" on you
because some have gotten away with say HOME ROBBERY so its ok if someone breaks into your home and steals your stuff?
hey so and so did it right?

see how assinine your continued ranting logic looks when applied to you?

scrounger

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

i would also point out that ukraine DIDNT WANT TO give up their nukes because they were afraid of this VERY SITUATION HAPPENING.

what people dont realize or want to admit when defending russia (or us staying out of it) is that USA mads A PROMISE TO DEFEND THEM if russia decided to do this and RUSSIA AGREED TO LEAVE UKRAINE ALONE.

russia ignored their promise and if the USA (right or wrong) wants to be a world power we must honor our word (unless some really egregious thing happens/facts) .

or we will no longer have our word trusted by enemy and friends alike.

btw i would like to bring this up here unlike other situations lately USA has gotten into Ukraine HAS NOT ASKED FOR BOOTS ON THE GROUND OR DIRECT MILITARY INTERVENTION.

all they asked for (and did so BEFORE THIS KICKED OFF) was THE WEAPONS , TECH AND AID (like intelligence/ assets) ...... TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

they are doing all the fighting themselves and holding off russia.

not one US "boot" on the ground

refreshing a country doing it itself .

scrounger

a reply to: Wattt6

Punishing Russia plain and simple. Punishing us too I think. Maybe its a reminder to not mess with the powers that be, huh?

Watch as they add assault rifles and high cap mags to the list of NFA items. You might need a FBI background check to keep em and most certainly would to buy one legally etc.. Smells a little fishy seeing how pro gun everyone is. I mean it smells like a sardine factory. Elections can not happen fast enough.

You already need a tax stamp and the checks that come with the ATF process to own a short barrel rifle, short barrels shotgun, weapons of mass destruction and machine guns etc..

I think they would avoid seizures on a wide scale as folks may grow tired of it pretty quick. Many would have to brutalized to take their arms etc.. and that may not sit well with American sensibilities. I dont personally think a seizure is an option on any level, but an ATF restriction could well happen.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous


No just 10 and 20 year occupations of countries.

Had the country the US invaded was right next door and there was millions of ethnic Americans living there, entire cities and towns that were just like America, the US would be keeping them as well if it meant it was best for their people.

originally posted by: MisguidedAngel
a reply to: bloodymarvelous


No just 10 and 20 year occupations of countries.

Had the country the US invaded was right next door and there was millions of ethnic Americans living there, entire cities and towns that were just like America, the US would be keeping them as well if it meant it was best for their people.

To be honest, Americans were shocked that the area fell into chaos to badly. We thought Saddam was preventing them from having democracy and stuff, and all it would take was his removal for them to live free and happy like we do.

It was a tough lesson. The USA spent gadzooks of money attempting to rebuild their infrastructure, and basically nothing went right the whole time. Total wash. No real profit, except maybe some corporations like Haliburton/KBR, which got all their money out of USA's own tax coffers.


Turns out American capacity for self government is a rare talent.

Now you wonder why everyone calls Ukraine a "sovereign nation"? Because they show capability for some measure of self government also.

If Russia completely destroyed their government, executed everyone, and left, Ukraine would have another democracy up and going within a year or two of them leaving.

(Strangely I feel like I'm drinking the cool aid as I post this........ I often wonder what really motivated that war? I wonder how many Russians actually believe that Putin is killing Nazis....)