Death: About heaven and hell

You know could that "pool of energy" be God?

Originally posted by Croat56
You know could that "pool of energy" be God?

no because it's much more. it's all gods from all religious + a bag of chips
also god = good. this pool = order.

Originally posted by Enyalius

also god = good. this pool = order.

hmmm can you elaborate on that?
The concept of God as known from various religions is perceived, amongst other things, as Order. A creator who created universe based on laws and who sustains this order of things.
Do you mean a different kind of order?

well if you read the bible, or any other "holy" book for that matter, they talk about several entities. "Gods" which people can identify with to make a difference between good and evil. to teach people morals and values easier because you can simply define "God" standing for all which is good, while satan presents all that is evil and wrong.

as i said in my main post, there is no Good or Evil. there is only Order and Chaos. which is meant in the way Physics works. i'm not a good at science so can't really eloborate on it in detail.

Order stands to maintain balance in the universe, as excample i'll take earth. our planet is ment to only have a certain amount of people and people are ment to die at a certain age. but mankind has evolved and devloped medicinal science to prolong live. for minor ilnesses this is not a problem, but for the bigger ilnesses it is. the plague, aids and many more ilnesses were ment to get rid of the weak individuals.

mankind found cures to most...big problem. now even the weak can survive and the balance is upset. the souls won't come back to the pool when they were ment to be and re-incarnated to this planet, or another. so natural disasters came into play to kill people and restore balance.

some people just aren't ment to have long prosperous lives and it isn't for us to decide whether someone lives or dies. we should just cure the minor ilnesses and let the rest of the people die in peace. this would also solve issues like the last shiavo case. she was way over due. and when there are less people you need to drain less resources from the planet to keep all those people happily warm and well fed inside their homes. thus the planet can live longer as well.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Enyalius
the reason i posted this is...well let's just say i'm against almost anything the church teaches you, the christian believers, the church itself.

I don't think you're as 'open-minded' as you may believe per this statement. Well at least you're clear on motive. There are those who try to build people up and others who want to tear them down.

Originally posted by Enyalius
... i want to people to wake up and see what the christianty and religion really is. being spiritual is more important and you can't be that by going to church and saying i read a fantasy book (bible) and can interpert (sp?) it. such books can be read any way you please without giving proper answers. you can read horoscopes from the newspapers and get a clearer answer

You've got an agenda to push, I can respect that. Now, ask me if I trust the info of someone who overdosed on alcohol vs. a large population of people who were chemically stable in the same situation.

I am glad you made it out alive though. Take care.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Enyalius
as i said in my main post, there is no Good or Evil. there is only Order and Chaos. which is meant in the way Physics works. i'm not a good at science so can't really eloborate on it in detail.

Order stands to maintain balance in the universe, as excample i'll take earth.

News flash. The laws of thermodynamics says that Order wins. All energy particles equidistant from each other-- unable to effect each other -- unchangable -- perfect order.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
News flash. The laws of thermodynamics says that Order wins. All energy particles equidistant from each other-- unable to effect each other -- unchangable -- perfect order.

Which law of thermodynamics? The third one says:

"The Universe will attain absolute zero when all energy and matter is randomly distributed across space. "

If it is 'randomly' distributed, there is no order.

Help me out please...

[edit on 7-4-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
News flash. The laws of thermodynamics says that Order wins. All energy particles equidistant from each other-- unable to effect each other -- unchangable -- perfect order.

Which law of thermodynamics? The third one says:

"The Universe will attain absolute zero when all energy and matter is randomly distributed across space. "

If it is 'randomly' distributed, there is no order.

Help me out please...

[edit on 7-4-2005 by saint4God]

I was thinking of the second. Equilibrium of energies = no work.

Edit for clarification: Yes the perceived order (see below) degrades into chaos, however, Chaos will continue to degrade due to entropy until it follows certain rules (an inability for one particle to effect another would require a non-random minimum distance between the particles). At that point, it is no longer chaos.

As a note though-- the quote you made isn't accurate. Currently, all energy and matter is randomly distibuted across space (from a scientific perspective since we cannot readily seperate scientific thought on a whim). The appearance of order within this arbitarily large system is only a product of probability.


[edit on 7-4-2005 by Raphael_UO]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Enyalius
the reason i posted this is...well let's just say i'm against almost anything the church teaches you, the christian believers, the church itself.

I don't think you're as 'open-minded' as you may believe per this statement. Well at least you're clear on motive. There are those who try to build people up and others who want to tear them down.

Originally posted by Enyalius
... i want to people to wake up and see what the christianty and religion really is. being spiritual is more important and you can't be that by going to church and saying i read a fantasy book (bible) and can interpert (sp?) it. such books can be read any way you please without giving proper answers. you can read horoscopes from the newspapers and get a clearer answer

You've got an agenda to push, I can respect that. Now, ask me if I trust the info of someone who overdosed on alcohol vs. a large population of people who were chemically stable in the same situation.

I am glad you made it out alive though. Take care.

[edit on 7-4-2005 by saint4God]

i'm very openminded, i've just seen the hypocricy and close mindedness of the church and most xtian believers myself. didn't have to die for that. they're the most obnoxious type of people. especially the ones living in america.

whether you trust me or not is not my problem. i don't have to deal with wrong decisions in the next reincarnations. all i'm saying is that it's more important to be spiritual then to be religious. religion only leads to wars and close minded individuals.

still you don't even have to die, only use logic, to see that reading a book and following its teachings isn't spiritual. it's just following like a dumb sheep. but hey if that makes you happy...

as far the Order vs Chaos debate that started. it's interesting to read what the scientific way is. but in the end one can not excist without the other. especially since it's reborn again and again and again.

Originally posted by Enyalius
all i'm saying is that it's more important to be spiritual then to be religious.

I like that alot. And this topic as a whole gives a bit of hope to someone who's been having an extremely hard time finding and keeping his faith.

After a recent revelation on death that I had Ive been thinking alot on what my beliefs are. Ive been having a very difficult time with the thought of absolute and eternal nothingness after death. Really scares me and it causes me to have alot of distress when I think about it : / anyways... Ill be sure to keep reading up on this topic.

Originally posted by phantomviewer
There is no black and white concrete dogma of death, thats for sure. . '

Have you ever heard of yin and yang? They are the balace between light and darkness. Are you saying that a murderor that likes to kill people for fun has no darkness inside to do such a thing?

No I'm saying there is no concrete written or spoken word that is absolute truth about death.
"Black and white" usually means that, to most people.

Light and darkness, yin and yang, has nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by saint4God
You've got an agenda to push, I can respect that. Now, ask me if I trust the info of someone who overdosed on alcohol vs. a large population of people who were chemically stable in the same situation.

You know I was going to mention that but, can you name people who have come back from the dead without being injected with some kind of chemical, and electrocuted?

If you are dead, you are obviously not chemically stable.

@Phantomviewer

you presented the excample of a murderer. if someone likes to kill for fun, does he not possess a dark side?

it's actually quite simple and already well know as well.

every individual has a so called "dark" and "light" side. to commit a crime does not mean that one side is presented stronger within that individual then the other side. good and evil is a man made concept in order to judge one another. last time i checked it's not our place to judge according to christianity.

anyway...when someone commits murder it's not because the "dark" is presented stronger within that individiual. that individual is just weak and feeble in mind. lesser demonic natured entities form this little voice in the back of your head. they can present themselves as your "conscience" or anything else trying to tempt you to commit murder.

they're also the voices trying to make you jealous etc. does that make someone a bad person? hardly. after all right and wrong are man made concepts. and seeing we're all jealous one time or another we'd all be "evil" by now.

in the end the choice is always yours to make. but if you're weak and easy to persuade even someone who thinks they're "light" and filled with all that is good will commit this murder. there is no god, nor nothing to protect you...there are only "voices" from entities giving you choices. which choice is made depends on you and you alone. so don't blame others or demons that possesed you or made you say stuff...it's bull...it's you and no one else. there are only a handfull of "people" roaming around who say the words they are told by the higher entities. and everyone posting here aren't one of those.

this is why the posts about "you have to look out for evil entities" are wrong beyond belief. entities themselves can't hurt you and the ones who can rather see you live in pain or decide it's not their place to interfere. all they can do is provide you with information they think is right and it's upto you to follow that or deny it. if you get hurt it's your own doing for making the wrong choices. now meeting a high concentration of Chaotic entities at one place did make me feel uneasy, doesn't mean they're "evil". I just don't like temptation in such a high concentration. very hard to stay true to your own ideals, even for strongwilled individuals such as myself.

you can follow the path of chaos. this doesn't mean you will commit crimes necesarily. it just means you made choices which will make your life a bit harder. so you have to work harder to achieve that which you want. if you follow Order you will have it a lot easier. logic.

I`m just curious on one thing Enyalius..before all of this happened, before u discovered the 'truth', did u have christian beliefs? or a religion that teaches you that heaven & hell exists? Because if u did have christian beliefs, and actually belived that there was a heaven and hell, according to paperclip`s first post, you 'go' where you placed u`re beliefs on, in physical life..for the christians, that means heaven or hell..so if you DID have christian beliefs, didn`t u have to see something like a hell or a heaven instead of that pool, and those entities?

well i used to be catholic.

but the people and church...ugh please don't get me started.
also figured that reading a book about flawed teachings was of no use either.

few years of having no religion till someone suggested i give reiki a go. this isn't a religion don't get me wrong. but it showed me that there was something and isntead of reading a book and stuff i started to experience it myself.

that's when i knew almost 100% that i made the right decision to dump christianity. and after this experience i'm 110% convinced it was the right decision.

i've always been someone who is sceptical and rather experiences events himself before accepting it as the truth.

in fact...anyone who does reiki and is in control of their own energy flows can experience paranormal phenomena. when meditating or in a trance you too can go to the higher places and figure this all out yourself. you won't be able to go to the highest realm, but close enough. even people who have/had OBE's have seen fragments of this.

like i said. anyone can follow a religion like a sheep and read a fantasy book. but being religious en spiritual are 2 entirely different concepts. i prefer to be spiritual and open instead of religious and flawed. even the light entities teach you to think for yourself and live upto your potential. religion is a constraint that keeps you down.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Enyalius]

but I find God very liberating, not having to carry around spite, anger, selfishness, hate, jealousy, fear, and pride. Being free of these things was the best thing that could have ever happened to me because what's left is love, faith, hope, joy, and compassion.

Does hearing yourself say "sheep" and "fantasy book" give you a sense of superiority?


[edit on 8-4-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Legalizer
You know I was going to mention that but, can you name people who have come back from the dead without being injected with some kind of chemical, and electrocuted?

Yes, but not anyone everyone here is familiar with...except Lazarus.

Originally posted by Legalizer
If you are dead, you are obviously not chemically stable.

I'm talking about mind-altering substances. Having been drunk before, I can attest that perception of reality does in fact, change.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Enyalius
well i used to be catholic.

but the people and church...ugh please don't get me started.
also figured that reading a book about flawed teachings was of no use either.
like i said. anyone can follow a religion like a sheep and read a fantasy book. but being religious en spiritual are 2 entirely different concepts. i prefer to be spiritual and open instead of religious and flawed. even the light entities teach you to think for yourself and live upto your potential. religion is a constraint that keeps you down.

[edit on 8-4-2005 by Enyalius]

Wow, none of this sounds open minded to me. It sound quite closed minded. You find "Christians, especially the ones from America" to be awful, yet you are painting them ALL with a hugely broad brush.

I am an American Christian, albeit maybe not an exemplary one, but you have never met me, yet you have passed judgment on me personally. Here in the US, that is considered PREJUDICED. Prejudiced does not equal open minded. It is equated with close mindedness

I can disagree with someone's beliefs, because I believe in mine(which conflict with others) but yet, still respect them as a person and where they are coming from. That to me is not close minded or prejudiced. It is standing for what I believe. It is respecting others.

It always confounds me to see so much dislike of Christians and Americans. YES, you will find some crappy people in the Christian faith. There is no rule that says that if you believe in Christian beliefs you are now a great person. Or that you will understand what is in the bible. I don't think many people actually understand what is being read.

Truly, the bible is fairly simple in what is being taught. Love others. Don't judge others, don't steal, cheat, treat others badly, murder, be rude to your parents, basically, be a good person.

I do know people in the Christian faith who truly enjoy tearing others down to bring themselves up. It isn't what Christianity teaches. To paint the religion with the failings of the followers is not fair or open minded. It is just a way to prove your point that the religion is wrong.

To me, it is much easier to be a "free thinker" to NOT practice Christianity. To do whatever I want and to be "enlightened". Though I think they are all very much misnomers. The enlightened thinkers always sound like a stoned person's musings. That stoned person always finds themselves so darn smart and think they really "get it". When, as the non stoned person, they sound ridiculous. They are only making sense to themself.

Anyone can follow ANYTHING they want. Doesn't mean they are right. I choose to be a sheep I suppose and read my fantasy book. I am betting my life that I am right though. I am sure enough I am betting the lives of my children on it too

Originally posted by llpoolej
I am an American Christian, albeit maybe not an exemplary one

I think you're are definately an exemplary one...

Otherwise, well said! Rock on!



[edit on 8-4-2005 by saint4God]

I am alright in print, but my real life needs some work. I know where I fail(and I am sure I fail in areas I don't even realize) I have met a few very very exemplary Christians, one Catholic, and one Presbyterian. Both were kind, didn't gossip, would give you the shirt off your back while never judging you.

I am not exemplary. Number one of all, I am waaaay to gossipy! I would hate for me, the real life me, to be what all Christians are judged by.

If Christians were analogous to show dogs, I would be pet quality!