Inside A White Supremacist Militia in Ukraine

This is one of those satirical threads which try to reinforce the Russian propaganda that Ukrainians are all Nazis. It's now a pretext for the invasion and the ensuing mayhem and misery.

The fact is that the Russian regime is led by ethnonationalists, of the type we have not seen in Europe since the Nazis. Hitler was an ethnonationalist, and so is Putin. In the case of Putin, it's a case that the "bigger the front, the bigger the back" (Grosz).

So we ignore the genocide of the western Ukrianians to the eastern side? I can think of a reason to do that.

Why do people ignore such important facts?

They are either brainwashed to not see for themselves or paid to push the narratives.

There is way more than the Western media has done in the past we might consider good. But after the last 10 years or so I will distrust our own media to tell us the truth anymore. How can you trust them?

THEREFORE:

We need to look at ALL of the data not one sided talking points. All of the data, period.

originally posted by: Direne
a reply to: Justoneman

Both sides are guilty

No. The old trick of equating victims to aggresors won't work. Humans have ways to clearly discern what's good and what's evil. Who is a good-doer and who is a wrong-doer. Otherwise coexistence would be impossible. In this case we know who is on the evil side, we know where he lives, and we are awaiting him to be captured, judged, found guilty, and sentenced. The Hague Trial Court is waiting for him.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: Boadicea


Yeah, he also stated those secret U.S. bio weapon labs that all the nazis were gonna attack russia with as the primary justifications for invading Ukraine.

Ok, lets talk about this.


You for some reason don't believe in such. This in the light of the last 3 years and all the BS about the vax that has been proven we the US of A have done with the Wuhan biolab?

Why would we only have one bioweapons lab if we have just proven to be in a bioweapon war?

Do you want us to all die from our own bought and paid for research that kills humanity so a minority can control the 500 Million Asians and 500 Million of the rest of us left afterwards more affectively?

Why do I ask? Because that is the plan and by now you to know this. I do believe.

originally posted by: EvanB
So you can't defend your country from invasion in your opinion if you espouse far right politics?

Sure you can. You just can't claim innocence in the situation of murder or whatever you call what the Nazis are doing to the Ukrainians from within the Ukraine.

I can agree there is no justification if you honestly believe they weren't murdering the E. Ukrainians.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: MapMistress


It has nothing to do with JUSTIFYING that invasion.

There IS no justification.

Nobody cares what putin's 'reasons' were.

They were absurd.

And imaginary.

a reply to: carport

When the Ukrainian Gov ignores THEIR Nazi's who commit heinous crimes against others cause they are their Nazi's it is real bad. IF they were just murderous crackpots the Gov would arrest them in most nations.

originally posted by: carport

Let me put some things in perspective.

The most active Neonazi scene in Eastern Europe is in ... surprise, surprise ... in RUSSIA! The scene is considered to consist of about 150 groups with 10,000+ members. They mainly act aganst non-russians, and especially against gay, homeless and Antifa. Their operation areas are Causcasus and Central Asia.

I've been trying to nail down some details, including numbers, and I'm not finding anything reliable. Can you share some links or point me in the right direction?

I started with Wikipedia -- List of Neo-Nazi Organizations -- following links and citations from there. Unfortunately, numbers are seldom provided, and those that are provided tend to be old, or vague or far-ranging estimates. Many smaller groups listed by Wikipedia are now defunct, often absorbed into larger groups.

In this regard, the argument about de-nazifying is a weak one - and Putin knows that very well.

That's rather disingenuous. It's not as if Putin likes the neo-Nazis or vice versa. Exactly the opposite. The neo-Nazi parties and organizations in Russia are virtually all opposed to Putin and to Communism. That's rather the point. They promote Social Nationalism.

And regardless of their activities elsewhere, for these purposes, Putin's complaints will be specific to the neo-Nazis in Ukraine who are actively fighting them, which would include many Russian neo-Nazis who have joined the Ukraine neo-Nazis to fight them.

Yes, there is an (one) army group in Ukraine that like to pose on pictures with supremacy/nazi flags and all that, but that's about it for Nazis in Ukraine.

Well, that may be technically true, but in large part because other neo-Nazi groups have disbanded to join forces the the Azov political party, if not the actual Azov battalion, since they became "legitimized" by Ukraine in becoming an official National Guard unit. Politically speaking, this would make sense. By joining forces with the official approved group, they give themselves legitimacy (and power) by association/inclusion.

BTW, there are Neonazis from Germany, who went and joined the war in the recent days - but they are joining the Russian side, not the Ukrainian, which might tell something. :-)

Interesting... any links? I looked but can't find anything. I'm aware of some Russian neo-Nazi groups providing military type training for neo-Nazis to fight for Ukraine against Russia. But I haven't seen anything about neo-Nazis joining Russia. In fact, it seems that many neo-Nazi groups are not wanting to get involved.

Anyway, nobody who not just rely on newspapers, will see a real threat. There are some "wanna-be-Nazis" here and here, some more in this region and country, some more in that, but mostly they are just crackpots, some washed-away ones and mainly young people, who follow this year this and next year another stream as part of their process of growing up. They simply do not play any prominent rule anywhere.

Um... not exactly... and not in Ukraine. Neo-Nazis have been and continue to play a huge role in the eastern Ukraine/Russia issues. It's ridiculous to suggest that that a neo-Nazi unit given official standing and backing and war-making power do not "play any prominent rule anywhere," and especially in this conflict.

However, the media likes, in recent years, to brand everyone who is not mainstream (which is currently middle to left), to be "right", and with some people, this lead to mix up right groups and nazis, and "Nazi" has often become a synonym for "right" (even though historically, they were left...). So even Trump has become a "Nazi" in some media. :-)

Yes. We all know about the Boy Who Cried Wolf... and when the Wolf was actually on their doorstep, no one believed him...

De-nazyfiying a country is nothing that anyone would really believe, not even the Russians, because many of them live or work in west european countries and travel between Russia and Western Europe is a normal occurence. And Russians are, by experience, used to being lied to and state media being doctored.

If people don't "believe" in de-nazifying, it's because they don't see a problem -- as you suggested. And to the extent that neo-Nazi activity may be rare or non-existent in most of Europe and even Russia, we are talking specifically about Ukraine and Russia, and where it is an issue.

No, this is not the main argument, it is an argument for the media only - and I am sure, Putin knows that very well. :-)

No, actually, it's not an "argument for the media only." Hence the multiple posters trying so hard to deny that it even exists, and the multiple attempts to brush it off as "Russian propaganda" rather than any attempt to put it in its proper perspective and context in the bigger picture.

Everyone everywhere has an absolute inalienable Natural right to protect themselves and their people from threats, including in war, and including Nazis and neo-Nazis. I don't think anyone would deny that. The real issue is the extent that their political and ideological philosophy influences and determines the politics and ideology of the Ukraine government, now and going forward, and how they wage war. It does not seem that the neo-Nazis have much power in terms of government overall. Their power and activity seem relatively confined (for now) in eastern Ukraine fighting against Russia.

originally posted by: Boadicea
I've been trying to nail down some details, including numbers, and I'm not finding anything reliable. Can you share some links or point me in the right direction?

I had added a link at the end of my post, a quite neutral dossier about it. This dossier is from 2016.
Unfornately, many information is behind paywalls these days, there is a lot around, but not accessible. :-(

That's rather disingenuous. It's not as if Putin likes the neo-Nazis or vice versa. Exactly the opposite. The neo-Nazi parties and organizations in Russia are virtually all opposed to Putin and to Communism. That's rather the point. They promote Social Nationalism.

Actually, they are divided, but appear in the public only seldom in recent years. One good number of them went to Ukraine into the now "independend" regions of Luhansk and Donbass, where, they, ironically, fight against the Nazis who fight on the Ukranian side.

And regardless of their activities elsewhere, for these purposes, Putin's complaints will be specific to the neo-Nazis in Ukraine who are actively fighting them, which would include many Russian neo-Nazis who have joined the Ukraine neo-Nazis to fight them.

They never had a bigger percentage of 10% in Ukranian politics. The founder of the Asov regiment left the parliament because of a law that forbids parlamentarians to be in the police or military.

Well, that may be technically true, but in large part because other neo-Nazi groups have disbanded to join forces the the Azov political party, if not the actual Azov battalion, since they became "legitimized" by Ukraine in becoming an official National Guard unit. Politically speaking, this would make sense. By joining forces with the official approved group, they give themselves legitimacy (and power) by association/inclusion.

The Asov regiment was a _privately_ financed group (by Ukranina oligarchs) who fought 2014 against the separatists. Only after that the Ukranian government started to support them, because the Ukraninan military per se was sort of weak, and they realized that they would need a well-fighting group.
There is an actual article about it here:
www.aljazeera.com...

Interesting... any links?

It was from a broadcast of Deutsche Welle/Deutschlandfunk. Reports of right wingers from Germany attaching to Russia and Ukraine (3:1) can be found in actual news and telegram groups. The absolute number of them is quite small, though.

Um... not exactly... and not in Ukraine. Neo-Nazis have been and continue to play a huge role in the eastern Ukraine/Russia issues. It's ridiculous to suggest that that a neo-Nazi unit given official standing and backing and war-making power do not "play any prominent rule anywhere," and especially in this conflict.

No, they don't play any prominent role. Their number is well below 10% in EACH of the European countries, in some countries it is rather close to 0%. If something is pulled into the news, it doesn't mean they are "important", but rather that the news agency thinks so. I visit many European countries all the time, there is no lingering Nazi problem as long as there is no potential for growth. And, at this time, there simply isn't, numbers stagnate or go down.

If people don't "believe" in de-nazifying, it's because they don't see a problem -- as you suggested. And to the extent that neo-Nazi activity may be rare or non-existent in most of Europe and even Russia, we are talking specifically about Ukraine and Russia, and where it is an issue.

But it isn't, media and some politics just try to convince us that there is. Don't buy it.

No, actually, it's not an "argument for the media only." Hence the multiple posters trying so hard to deny that it even exists, and the multiple attempts to brush it off as "Russian propaganda" rather than any attempt to put it in its proper perspective and context in the bigger picture.

Depends on where one lives and what his ideology is. I am left by heart and right by brain and try my best to take a neutral stance. I am not a person who wants to pull people on his side - because I have none.
And the further away, the less one has the "feel" of it as well. I more than 50 years I have, for example, not seen ONE _real_ Nazi in Germany, they are rather wanna-be confused people who only think they know what a Nazi is. And their number is small and not growing (and that for a long time). They habe basically a nationalist ideology and hate foreigners from Africa and Middle East. Nothing more to see with them.

It does not seem that the neo-Nazis have much power in terms of government overall. Their power and activity seem relatively confined (for now) in eastern Ukraine fighting against Russia.

Yes, I agree with that - but their extent is (see Asov regiment) limited. No people in Europe are interested in war or fascist ideology of any kind. Which does not mean that there are not dreams of a few people of a different future - this future won't happen anytime in the near or medium run.

a reply to: carport

Thank you so much for responding -- much appreciated!

Everything you've said seems to fit what I'm finding. I don't see the actual political ideology having any real power or influence in the politics of the day, no matter how much they wish otherwise. But they can and do wage war against their invader -- Russia -- in defense of and on behalf of their country.

originally posted by: Justoneman
I can agree there is no justification if you honestly believe they weren't murdering the E. Ukrainians.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: MapMistress


It has nothing to do with JUSTIFYING that invasion.

There IS no justification.

Nobody cares what putin's 'reasons' were.

They were absurd.

And imaginary.

I never said they weren't killing russian invaders an ukrainian traitors that were stealing a portion of Ukraine.

IN Ukraine.

They most definately were.

I specifically said they didn't kill enough of them to discourage another russian invasion.

a reply to: Justoneman


Maybe we can ask russia to invade the U.S. to eliminate our urban gang violence problem then?

Your criteria fits perfectly with them, and they're a LOT larger and more violent (not even close) than the Ukrainian nazi boogeyman ever was.

Absurd.

a reply to: vNex92

I'll admit you are correct, but I'd argue that when at war you use whatever you have available to expel invaders, so while they are nazi scum they are the best fighters they have.

a reply to: namehere


Did the nazi clowns do any attacking in russia?

originally posted by: namehere
a reply to: vNex92

I'll admit you are correct, but I'd argue that when at war you use whatever you have available to expel invaders, so while they are nazi scum they are the best fighters they have.

As I continue to ponder all of this, and continue to learn about the history and larger circumstances, it occurs to me that everyone has a right to protect and defend themselves, regardless of political affiliation. The fact that they are fighting for the nation shouldn't be such a big deal.

The bigger question and/or concern is just how much power do they have ideologically within government and military decision-making? For example, is it government/military policy to shoot to kill any non-whites? That's the kind of thing that should be an issue. But if they are following all the internationally accepted rules of engagement, then their political ideology isn't a problem.

I don't understand why so much time and effort has been put into denying their neo-Nazi ideology and their very existence, rather than just admitting it, and respecting their right to protect their nation from a foreign invader.

Is it simply the optics and the stigma of being called "Nazi." Or is it more?

a reply to: Boadicea


Because someone is trying to use a relatively small problem with radical racists (small as compared to most other countries) as justification for violently invading a country of 45 million and threatening global nuclear annihilation.

No other reason.

And NOBODY has claimed that Ukraine's racists don't exist.

They do.

No different than russia, U.S. Germany, China, Japan, and most other large countries

a reply to: PatriotGames4u

Germany had a few words on Ruiias claim to be fighting naziism today,basically called Putin a Nazi.

a reply to: yuppa


Funny thing, he basically is in MANY ways.

Always has been.

Has been said right here for 2 decades.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u

originally posted by: Justoneman
I can agree there is no justification if you honestly believe they weren't murdering the E. Ukrainians.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: MapMistress


It has nothing to do with JUSTIFYING that invasion.

There IS no justification.

Nobody cares what putin's 'reasons' were.

They were absurd.

And imaginary.

I never said they weren't killing russian invaders an ukrainian traitors that were stealing a portion of Ukraine.

IN Ukraine.

They most definately were.

I specifically said they didn't kill enough of them to discourage another russian invasion.

You still are not quite on track because you need to go back a bit more than last month to even have knowledge of what is being discussed. How do you feel about the way the Nazi's acted in 2014 in the Ukraine?

Are we limited to what Putin has done or is there openness to discuss all that has happened we can find besides just the attack by Russians on Ukrainians?

Are you Hunter Biden? Don't answer it wouldn't change a thing.

originally posted by: PatriotGames4u
a reply to: Justoneman


Maybe we can ask russia to invade the U.S. to eliminate our urban gang violence problem then?

Your criteria fits perfectly with them, and they're a LOT larger and more violent (not even close) than the Ukrainian nazi boogeyman ever was.

Absurd.

NO but perhaps following your idea more to the point, we should go into North Mexico and save their citizens from the Drug Lords but our three letter agencies make way too much money off of the whole situation.

There are a lot of tangled webs going on that are not nice for us peons on all sides Pat. I don't like it, you don't like it, check. We have to address these other elephants besides the caught red handed idiots of the Democrat/RINO party in the US. IN fact they need their perp walks for their crimes that we have been watching them commit with reckless abandon an no consequence yet.


Our moral high ground as a Nation is at stake if you care about us in the USA for real.

a reply to: Justoneman


Why stop at Mexico?

If we were to ever adopt russia's insane 'policy doctrine' most of the planet would be in big trouble.