Medical Error is the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA

www.hopkinsmedicine.org...

you can find all sorts of articles related to this. So the question is why do so many people still think doctors, nurses are like "gods" (maybe a little strong word) or infallible?

titles, are just that, titles. Knowing the sordid history of early medicine (nevermind present)...one would see all sorts of huckster-ism. Now it just goes under fancier names / marketing.

Is it TV shows / movies that glorify doctors? Like ER? (Only one I can think of - don't really watch TV for a very long time). Never did watch that.

ER - www.imdb.com...

Deference to some "higher authority" due to complete ignorance / fear.

The bigger question is why do people think medicine should be prefect? Today it is so easy to suggest the doctor did wrong when the doctor is doing the best they can and when people Monday morning quarterback the event they are like oh you should have done this, you should have thought this, and so on... Many medical issues are like a giant jigsaw puzzle to be solved.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
The bigger question is why do people think medicine should be prefect? Today it is so easy to suggest the doctor did wrong when the doctor is doing the best they can and when people Monday morning quarterback the event they are like oh you should have done this, you should have thought this, and so on... Many medical issues are like a giant jigsaw puzzle to be solved.

While I agree to all of this and that it can't be an easy job, I grew up in a medical family and surrounded by my parent's doctor friends. What I saw was an arrogance that has no match. A disdain for the average person. That said, they also worked extremely hard, and worked very long hours, occasionally called out at all hours of the night.

For me it was the lack of humility that stuck out as wrong. As long as they uphold that, people will expect medicine to be perfect.

It isn't all doctors though and maybe represents the older generation. I went to a young doctor at a walk in clinic for an ear infection and she actually went to a book to double check the antibiotic and dosage for it. She fully explained to me that it's best to get it right and never assume if you have any doubts. That's the humility I want to see in a doctor.

I went to school with a girl whose dad amputated the wrong leg on a patient! No problem, insurance will cover it. I was an uncertified dental assistant for my dad's practice at 16 (basically just handing things over and doing sterilization) and got to see a dental surgery done on a child in the hospital. The anesthetist screwed up, not paying attention and my dad hollered at him. That anesthetist was years later found dead in the hospital bathroom of an overdose.

So they are human, they make mistakes but much of it is preventable and they need to get off their high horse about being superior. Might just be my experience though.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
The bigger question is why do people think medicine should be prefect? Today it is so easy to suggest the doctor did wrong when the doctor is doing the best they can and when people Monday morning quarterback the event they are like oh you should have done this, you should have thought this, and so on... Many medical issues are like a giant jigsaw puzzle to be solved.

No one is asking anyone to be perfect but if you're donning a white coat and telling me to let you inject experimental gene therapy and that I can't do my own research you better be closer to perfection than I. And I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my job.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
The bigger question is why do people think medicine should be prefect? Today it is so easy to suggest the doctor did wrong when the doctor is doing the best they can and when people Monday morning quarterback the event they are like oh you should have done this, you should have thought this, and so on... Many medical issues are like a giant jigsaw puzzle to be solved.

It can't be perfect, but if you want to go from perfect to 3rd leading cause of death I'd suggest you pack a lunch and bring gas money. It's not a short trip.

a reply to: dontneedaname

Can't say this shocks me. Have a medical error issue going on right now in fact.

About 8 years ago I had an ear infection, first one of my life. Ended up being a MRSA infection and was really rough getting over it, meds were almost worse than the MRSA. Finally got it taken care of and was just going about my life, until a year later. Another ear infection, same ear, not MRSA. Odd. Got some ear drops and it cleared up.

Another year goes by, another infection in the same ear. I finally ask "Hey what's causing this to happen every year?", my ENT at the time was an older gentleman, he said "Sometimes it just happens to people, we could do a CT but that would cost a lot and I wouldn't recommend it.", okay you're the doctor. Fast-forward a few more years and I request the CT, it was denied as he would not give me a referral. Said there was no reason for it as they were clearing up with ear drops.

So now here we are in February of 2022. I have lost all hearing in my left ear aside from constant tinnitus, also having vertigo issues. In September of last year I decided to go back to the ENT, my old one had retired so now I have a new doctor. Yep, ear infection, here's some antibiotics and come back in 2 weeks. Show back up, hmmm looks improved but still have some fluid, let's put a tube in to drain and equalize pressure. Also did an audiogram to see just how bad my hearing was, it's not pretty. Show back up in another 2 weeks, greatly improved with the tube but still shows as infected, let's try some more hardcore antibiotics and culture this just to be safe. Culture comes back normal, antibiotics are hell again.

Holidays happen, schedules get pushed, I finally get back in to see him in January. Still no hearing improvement, so they do a bone conductivity test, nerves are just fine and I can hear when the speaker is on my skull. Checks my sinus cavity, all clear. Tries a migraine block just to see if the tinnitus can be cleared up, no luck. Okay let's get you an appointment for hearing aids but also with a surgeon because I'm fairly sure it's an ossicular issue but you need a CT to check that and the other doctor is better at performing surgery on this type of thing.

Hearing aids come in first, slightly improves hearing, does nothing for tinnitus. Finally get to consult with surgeon. He does all of the tests and...cholesteatoma. Describes every single symptom I've had, how it can cause a recurring ear infection 1-2 times a year, ear never seems dry, and can eventually lead to permanent hearing damage as well as potential meningitis. "Could this have been detected sooner?" "Likely around the 3rd or 4th infection you should have had a CT scan."

Looking through my chart from the ENT practice, all of this is documented. Finally getting the CT I need Wednesday with a determination of what type of surgery I may need. Turns out this is also happening in my right ear, just to a way lesser degree. Once I have some additional questions answered I'm speaking with an attorney. The surgeon mentioned that this could have been managed by twice yearly visits to check my tympanic membrane and the retraction that was going on to ensure that everything was clean and managed.

All of this to say, had I not gone to a different doctor I could have ended up dead down the line in a very unpleasant situation.

a reply to: Xtrozero

As you can read in my account above, I'm not looking for perfection. Competence however is what I am expecting. Sure 1 ear infection, no big deal it happens. 2? Okay kinda sucks for you doesn't it. 3-7 however? Hmmm maybe we need to take at some underlying causes. Which as a specialist in this field, you should know what the heck you're looking at.

First guy just treated the symptoms and sent me on my way, the second guy actually tried everything he could think of before sending me on to someone that had more info, final guy in a 10 minute visit made the diagnosis that I should have had 6 years ago. I wouldn't have had hearing loss, I wouldn't have had to spend a couple of grand on hearing aids, I wouldn't have had to miss work (aside from an occasional appointment). All of this could have been prevented.

I get mistakes happen, 7 years worth of kicking the can down the road? Come on now.

originally posted by: Hypntick
a reply to: Xtrozero

As you can read in my account above, I'm not looking for perfection. Competence however is what I am expecting. Sure 1 ear infection, no big deal it happens. 2? Okay kinda sucks for you doesn't it. 3-7 however? Hmmm maybe we need to take at some underlying causes. Which as a specialist in this field, you should know what the heck you're looking at.

First guy just treated the symptoms and sent me on my way, the second guy actually tried everything he could think of before sending me on to someone that had more info, final guy in a 10 minute visit made the diagnosis that I should have had 6 years ago. I wouldn't have had hearing loss, I wouldn't have had to spend a couple of grand on hearing aids, I wouldn't have had to miss work (aside from an occasional appointment). All of this could have been prevented.

I get mistakes happen, 7 years worth of kicking the can down the road? Come on now.

Most "doctors" know *seemingly* next to nothing about nutrition and prevention, energy (EMF), environmental factors, etc...

your answer/solution may lie in those realms.

you go to the doctor. he says go to the hospital.
you go to the hospital where you die.

then they send you a bill.

I do not get it.
Why would you pay?
First, YOU are dead. Second, they did not deliver the service you contracted for.

Why do they expect to get paid for not delivering as promised?
Dying is free.

a reply to: dontneedaname

And this was pre-covid too, generally speaking.

There is so much evidence out there that blind faith and defense of the medical industry, organizations, and pharma, are misplaced faith. Yet, so many people including on ATS treat critics as some kind of insane fringe people.

originally posted by: igloo

originally posted by: Xtrozero
The bigger question is why do people think medicine should be prefect? Today it is so easy to suggest the doctor did wrong when the doctor is doing the best they can and when people Monday morning quarterback the event they are like oh you should have done this, you should have thought this, and so on... Many medical issues are like a giant jigsaw puzzle to be solved.

While I agree to all of this and that it can't be an easy job, I grew up in a medical family and surrounded by my parent's doctor friends. What I saw was an arrogance that has no match. A disdain for the average person. That said, they also worked extremely hard, and worked very long hours, occasionally called out at all hours of the night.

For me it was the lack of humility that stuck out as wrong. As long as they uphold that, people will expect medicine to be perfect.

It isn't all doctors though and maybe represents the older generation. I went to a young doctor at a walk in clinic for an ear infection and she actually went to a book to double check the antibiotic and dosage for it. She fully explained to me that it's best to get it right and never assume if you have any doubts. That's the humility I want to see in a doctor.

I went to school with a girl whose dad amputated the wrong leg on a patient! No problem, insurance will cover it. I was an uncertified dental assistant for my dad's practice at 16 (basically just handing things over and doing sterilization) and got to see a dental surgery done on a child in the hospital. The anesthetist screwed up, not paying attention and my dad hollered at him. That anesthetist was years later found dead in the hospital bathroom of an overdose.

So they are human, they make mistakes but much of it is preventable and they need to get off their high horse about being superior. Might just be my experience though.

Aren't doctors mostly overglorified technicians? Many people imagine they are scientists and researchers, when really they are just learning the practice of being a doctor using prevailing medical knowledge. Many of them have far less research training and experience than I do, and I'm not a doctor. I mean methodology and design.

Don't many of them uncritically download pharmaceutical company methods?

How many of them are utterly uncritical of Covid policies within hospitals?

originally posted by: dontneedaname

originally posted by: Hypntick
a reply to: Xtrozero

As you can read in my account above, I'm not looking for perfection. Competence however is what I am expecting. Sure 1 ear infection, no big deal it happens. 2? Okay kinda sucks for you doesn't it. 3-7 however? Hmmm maybe we need to take at some underlying causes. Which as a specialist in this field, you should know what the heck you're looking at.

First guy just treated the symptoms and sent me on my way, the second guy actually tried everything he could think of before sending me on to someone that had more info, final guy in a 10 minute visit made the diagnosis that I should have had 6 years ago. I wouldn't have had hearing loss, I wouldn't have had to spend a couple of grand on hearing aids, I wouldn't have had to miss work (aside from an occasional appointment). All of this could have been prevented.

I get mistakes happen, 7 years worth of kicking the can down the road? Come on now.

Most "doctors" know *seemingly* next to nothing about nutrition and prevention, energy (EMF), environmental factors, etc...

your answer/solution may lie in those realms.

This is correct. My understanding is that a standard MD has very little training on topics such as nutrition. People have really been taught that these doctors are more than they are.

a reply to: dontneedaname

Wait... if medical error is the 3rd leading cause of death in the USA then it is obvious that being ill is the 2nd leading cause of death in the US, because you don't visit a doctor unless you feel ill, no?

I wonder what's the 1st leading cause of death in the USA... wait, found the answer: the 1st leading cause of death in the US must be... to be ill... in the USA. No?

a reply to: Direne

Heart disease, cancer you say?



$1.7 million in 1948 = $20 million inflation adjusted to 2022

And yup...most "doctors" just repeat what the big organizations tell them.

don't 100% agree with what he says below...as he is missing some factors...but it's well worth a watch and I generally agree.

originally posted by: Madviking


This is correct. My understanding is that a standard MD has very little training on topics such as nutrition. People have really been taught that these doctors are more than they are.

A high school friend once told me (after becoming an e-room doctor, after graduating from Stanford, UCLA) that he never took a nutrition class (my memory is foggy, maybe he took one, but I want to say none). Graduated in late 90s /early 00s.

I think things maybe have changed a little? I don't know. And nutrition is just one small piece...and it's constantly changing as well.

originally posted by: dontneedaname

originally posted by: Madviking


This is correct. My understanding is that a standard MD has very little training on topics such as nutrition. People have really been taught that these doctors are more than they are.

A high school friend once told me (after becoming an e-room doctor, after graduating from Stanford, UCLA) that he never took a nutrition class (my memory is foggy, maybe he took one, but I want to say none). Graduated in late 90s /early 00s.

I think things maybe have changed a little? I don't know. And nutrition is just one small piece...and it's constantly changing as well.

No, they haven't. Some doctors seek it out themselves.

Nutrition and diet are a HUGE aspect of health and prevention. Many doctors and organizations even push outdated 30 year old diet models, such as fat is worse than processed carbs. Red meat and eggs are bad, etc. Hint, they aren't.

Medical mistakes you say?

Significant Other had triple bypass. then proceeded to go 28hrs without ANY pain meds. After the first 10 or so hours I drove home, picked up his pain meds, drove back to hospital then the real mayhem started with hospital staff who threatened to call the police, security got called ect...

Result- primary doc called hospital as he was the prescribing physician. Day later hospital finally admitted there had been a "oversight". Primary physician informed hospital I was permitted to let him have his own meds. It'd already been documented pre-surgery in case something stupid happened. I also had informed Staff I was giving them to him to avoid ANY chance of him being double dosed.

Significant Other had massive abdominal abscess, surgery required. Hospital surgeon preformed operation. Not being brain dead I drew a circle around incision site during wound dressing change with nurse present. Abscess remained inflamed beyond normal, redness moved outside of drawn circle. Hospital surgeon insisted they'd gotten it all out and refused SO a MRI or any further testing.

Result- Again Primary Physician intervenes, orders testing done an , gets the privilege of dealing with Surgeon, sets up another surgery with a different surgeon for second surgery.

SO- fell at home then the next day complained of vision loss, to say SO was demonstrating radically altered behaviors
is candy coating it. Got SO to hospital, ER Doc gives standard test looking for competency. Despite me giving Doc info of past medical issues & treatments, despite my letting Doc know SO has consistently presented atypically in previous medical interventions, despite having full access to medical files in system. Doc decided SO was fine. After drawn out back and forth got ER Doc to get more creative in the cognitive questioning. SO is not stupid and too many to count instances with Doctors, SO pretty much could answer correctly by rote what day it is and who's the president.

Result- MRI done, massive brain bleed found, SO in Neuro-ICU for three weeks.

I agree Doctors are human, over worked, buried in mandated paperwork, have insane metrics forced on them. However after all my dealings over the years with Doctors and more mistakes I don't have time to type let me say just one thing.
IF YOU EVER have to go to the hospital you need someone with you, and in some cases even Doctor appointments otherwise you will die. It'll be a stupid mistake, it's preventable and I'm guessing The OP's correct that it's the third leading cause of death. I'm just shocked that it's ONLY the third.

Before anyone jumps to conclusions SO was a complete medical train wreck with multiple issues mostly inherited from Parents. Nothing drug related nothing fat related, nothing alcohol related. Disciplinary action was taken in several cases, one Doc had their medical license revoked altho it was from another incident I didn't use as an example. We took no legal action despite it being warranted and urged to by other Doctors.

a reply to: dontneedaname

Here are the leading causes of death in America, as of 2020.

Causes and Rank: www.cdc.gov...

If "Medical Error" is number 3, some of the other causes would need to have deaths subtracted.

Which causes would lose the most deaths?

originally posted by: dontneedaname

you can find all sorts of articles related to this. So the question is why do so many people still think doctors, nurses are like "gods" (maybe a little strong word) or infallible?

I have been in the medical field of Nursing for near fifty years. I have never been treated or thought of as a God. I have been the victim of assault on more than one occasion, and every single time, I was blindsided because I had done nothing to cause the assailant to assault me. Everytime it was a response to what someone else had done to them or because they were unhappy about a decision or result.

Nurses and doctors at one time may have been thought of, and treated with respect, but that was a very long time ago.

Most medical errors happen because medical personnel are overworked. Their hours are too long, and the patient ratio is ridiculously under staffed.

When I started out the nurse patient ratio in the units were one to one, sometimes two nurses to one patient if the case was complex enough. They increased it to two patients to one nurse. Then three to one. Some places are now as much as four to six to one.

I left floor nursing a long time ago because there was no way to prevent errors with that patient to staff ratio. I saw it was a straight path to losing my license, so I stepped away from direct hands on patient care. It has not gotten better, and it won't, as long as the industry continues to put profit over the patient.

Violence against nurses in their workplace is a major global problem that has received increased attention in recent years. 1 Approximately 25% of registered nurses report being physically assaulted by a patient or family member, while over 50% reported exposure to verbal abuse or bullying. 2 Nurses, who are primarily responsible for providing life‐saving care to patients are victimized at a significantly higher rate than other health‐care professionals, 3 and it is estimated that workplace violence causes 17.2% of nurses to leave their job every year. 4

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

a reply to: igloo

I always remember this medical joke....."What is the difference between a surgeon and God? God doesn't think he is a surgeon.: