Russia evacuating diplomatic staff from Ukraine

a reply to: Freeborn

Royals are just public image, they have no real power what comes politics. Shame on Britain royals

Just a notice.. back in subject
Dmitry Peskov's announcement in late 2020 that Putin had already received permission from the upper house of parliament, the Federal Council, in 2015 to use Russia's armed forces abroad has not been revoked. So Putin can start war whenever he wants and ask permission later.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: 1947boomer

We put nukes in Turkey... We have defensive missles in nations near or on Russia's borders.

If Ukraine joined NATO, we could put military assets there.

Maybe it's not a direct translation, but if you neutralize a countries ability to project their offensive or defensive capabilities, it's very similar to a first strike capability by removing theirs.

We could play with semantics or true translations, but I promise if Russia made a military treaty with Mexico right now there would be a similar geopolitical standoff as we're seeing there.

Ive been saying the MEXICO analogy about Ukraine myself here on ATS. Thusly I agree

a reply to: dollukka

Russia is going to view such an alliance as having the ability to place first strike offensive capabilities.

The west would sell it as a defensive alliance.

Both could make the case for their position.

But NATO isn't as much of a discussion anymore. There's a reason they made prerequisites to join. To make NATO an attractive option, they made rules to join. You can't just get some country in conflict to join or else it could rope in every NATO member. So the rules are you have to be stable.

Russia saw this possibility of Ukraine membership, and took Crimea knowing it would throw a wrench in the cogs. We could argue how messed up that is, but realistically, Russia isn't going to give up the site of their black sea fleet.

So here we are, we all have to navigate it. NATO is off the board, but the west could always throw together a separate coalition, and I'm sure that's not off the table.

I personally don't want to see it. Ukraine isn't my problem. There are plenty of countries in the world who's sovereignty is under threat, or who are being oppressed by dictators. We're not consistent on who we get involved with, so that to me tells me it's only when certain people's interest are involved, and they're rarely if ever aligned with mine, or other regular citizens' interests.

If this continues, the only people left in the Ukraine will be Ukrainian, what a boondoggle!

a reply to: dollukka

Putin playing them at their own game.

I think Putin wanted it to look like that. Desperation or just nothing else to do at the moment.

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: putnam6

As living in Scandinavia i was stunned when Estonia joined NATO ( didn´t see that coming and thought they were very brave doing that ). I have visited Estonia three times in my life, first one was during Soviet rule and i was shocked by the poverity and how bad things were there, i found it so depressing that i left before i planned. Independent Estonia was totally different, how they build up their economy and living standards in such a short time and Tallinn has such a long history as Hansa town and long history by their own rights. I can see why they are "fighting" to keep their freedom and their history. They had no other choice...

If you could put yourself in same situation as these people in those countries were during USSR era, i wonder what would be your choice ? Living in a fear or make something to secure your future ?

Not sure what quote of mine you are referring to? makes it easier if you quote them Id be glad to respond about one specifically.

As for hypotheticals, the actualities are enough to keep my thoughts going, for now, suffice it to say, so in the end after 2 World Wars and 80 years America still has to stand up and save the UK and Europe's bacon?

You are aware the only reason he hasn't attacked already is the US.

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: 1947boomer

We put nukes in Turkey... We have defensive missles in nations near or on Russia's borders.

If Ukraine joined NATO, we could put military assets there.

Maybe it's not a direct translation, but if you neutralize a countries ability to project their offensive or defensive capabilities, it's very similar to a first strike capability by removing theirs.

We could play with semantics or true translations, but I promise if Russia made a military treaty with Mexico right now there would be a similar geopolitical standoff as we're seeing there.

Ive been saying the MEXICO analogy about Ukraine myself here on ATS. Thusly I agree

I'm sure the same verbiage wouldn't be used by people if a neighboring country was seeking a military alliance with Russia. I can't imagine they would say, "well they're sovereign, they can do as they wish".

I imagine it would be portrayed more like "Russia is being proactive" (if they were humoring accepting the alliance).

But people refuse to try and see it from their perspective, which is a large reason to failed relations post cold war. We don't see them as an equal in any way. Only that we are good and they are bad.

We could turn Ukraine into the Texas of eastern Europe, and it will still be under the threat of a Russian Invasion.

Location, Location, Location applies in more things than business real estate.

Has anyone heard if General Milley spoke to Putin ahead of Biden ? 🔥🤣

From a Russian perspective is it any wonder they've reacted to the slow creep of NATO towards their borders in the past thirty years? The country that saved Europe from the devil that was Nazism and this is how the world repays them. Thirty million people sacrificed to make the world safe from a vile murderous racist regime that sought to wipe out many of the peoples of Europe and the world and those same countries now gang up on Russia and try to undermine its economy, destroy it from within and place NATO bases all around its borders, attempt to turn once pro Russian members of the CIS / FSU against Moscow, installing dual nationals in their parliaments having trained them in western universities, formenting 'colour revolutions.'

From a Russian perspective the whole thirty years post disintegration of the USSR has been one scam after another perpetrated by the so called west.

Russians have their sense of pride. They have their near abroad that is fundamental to their security. To take this from them is one step too far. Is it any wonder Moscow now finally reacts to what even a blind person can see is an attack on their civilisation that has in many ways been a constant since since 1917? From a Russian perspective Ukraine going into NATO will be a formality and one more chess piece towards one day installing a similar pro western regime in Moscow. TPTB in the west need to pull back on this crusade against Russia, stick to what is now the EU, give up on undermining Moscow's influence in its near abroad and sort things out in their own nations. The west is literally taking the p*ss when it comes to dealing with Russia and Moscow has every right to secure the FSU before guaranteed NATO colonisation takes place with everything that comes with it

originally posted by: gortex
I'm no defender of Tsar Putin and have watched over the years as he's flouted International laws time and again but Russia was told at the end of the Cold War that NATO had no intention of pushing Eastwards...

Do you have one quote of those supposed multiple times? Because honestly, this is a lie propagated by the Russians themselves.

Sounds like they are using the Minsk Agreement as a baseline for talks, rightfully so.


economictimes.indiatimes.com... european-security-elysee-palace/articleshow/89531963.cms

Emmanuel Macron, Vladimir Putin agree to continue dialogue on Minsk agreements, European security: Elysee Palace

French and Russian presidents, Emmanuel Macron and Vladimir Putin, agreed in a phone call on Saturday to continue dialogue on European security and Minsk agreements for eastern Ukraine, the Elysee Palace said.

"The presidents discussed ways to move forward implementation of Minsk agreements and continued discussions of the conditions for security and stability in Europe. They expressed a desire to continue dialogue on these two issues," the French presidential office said in a statement ..

www.reuters.com...
Minsk Agreement

The deal set out a series of military and political steps that remain unimplemented. A major blockage has been Russia's insistence that it is not a party to the conflict and therefore is not bound by its terms. Point 10, for example, calls for the withdrawal of all foreign armed formations and military equipment from the two disputed regions, Donetsk and Luhansk: Ukraine says this refers to forces from Russia, but Moscow denies it has any there.

The 13 points were, in brief:

1. An immediate and comprehensive ceasefire

2. Withdrawal of all heavy weapons by both sides

3. Monitoring and verification by the OSCE

4. To start a dialogue on interim self-government for the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, in accordance with Ukrainian law, and acknowledge their special status by a resolution of parliament.

5. A pardon and amnesty for people involved in the fighting

6. An exchange of hostages and prisoners.

7. Provision of humanitarian assistance.

8. Resumption of socio-economic ties, including pensions.

9. Restore full control of the state border by the government of Ukraine.

10. Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, military equipment and mercenaries.

11. Constitutional reform in Ukraine including decentralisation, with specific mention of Donetsk and Luhansk.

12. Elections in Donetsk and Luhansk on terms to be agreed with their representatives.

13. Intensify the work of a Trilateral Contact Group including representatives of Russia, Ukraine and the OSCE.

a reply to: worldstarcountry

Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. You don't put landmines behind your front lines, you put them on the other guys side, or at the very least, in the middle.

If war is on the horizon you want to keep it there, not in your front yard. Battles fought on foreign soil are infinitely preferable to those fought on your own.

A nation can only do so much sabre rattling before people stop taking it seriously. Look at l'il kimmy. He looked like an absolute clown by the time he was finished. No one took him seriously.

Russia is a little different. Putin isn't about appearances, he is more into what is real and what it can do for him and for Russia. He isn't about to be pushed in to something he isn't ready for just because the world view may be less than flattering if he doesn't do it. Recalling his ambassadors is just one more step in a well known process. That, in and of itself, isn't the end of the world. But, I was hoping not to see that sign for some time. It means that the process is moving along at a steady pace. I would have been happier to see it stall for a little while, sort of a reassessment period. Instead, its on to the next phase.

There is so much happening in the world right now. So much in so many different potential theaters of war. Afghanistan, China, Ukraine, and Iran are not minor inconveniences. Add to that the olympics, the super bowl, massive trucker rallies, demonstrations of all kinds in the UK, Australia, and others. World leaders are stretched pretty thin in terms of their focus, resources and priorities.

And lets not forget biden and his list of priorities. He has a lot of free crack pipes to hand out. hunter cant take all of them...

That makes you feel good about your elected officials and your future, doesn't it?

a reply to: CriticalStinker

You are correct. The UK has much more of a duty and responsibility to the people of Hong Kong for example. Yet they let China take over without putting up any resistance. It's all for their own personal gain, not to protect people from tyrants.

a reply to: dollukka

Its a trap for Putin... nothing more.

This will create a a new "Iron Curtain" and effectively start a massive arms race in Eastern Europe, the
end of which is Russia's collapse (Putins Regime).

Not saying nothing to see here, Putin has been outplayed,

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: dollukka

Looks like the unthinkable is close at hand , Putin is cornered and NATO keeps on pushing so there was only going to be one outcome , hard times approach for Ukraine and the wider World.

The War Pigs win again , damn them all.

NATO is desperate for a war after their failures in Libya. This would be a mistake, i dont see Russia doing anything it would be west/NATO string the pot with eeo nazis.

a reply to: rigel4

end of which is Russia's collapse (Putins Regime).

People had being proclaiming the end of Putin Era since 08. It would be end of most Western economy if there is was in Ukraine. Its the oppsiste. You dont think Russia had being preparing for this for years?

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Russia also knows the West/NATO, EU want a distraction from their own failures of the vaccine mandates, not letting the restrictions, covid vaccine passes go. Along with the rising inflation across the western countries.

originally posted by: vNex92
a reply to: rigel4

end of which is Russia's collapse (Putins Regime).

People had being proclaiming the end of Putin Era since 08. It would be end of most Western economy if there is was in Ukraine. Its the opposite. You don't think Russia had being preparing for this for years?

Of course Putin's planned this ... He planned that the West would back down and they haven't
A new Arms race will not bankrupt the West, but a heavily sanctioned Russia will fall exhausted under the financial burden as did the Soviet Union.
Putin has single handed Brought NATO together , the result will be NATO on Russia's borders heavily armed this time. Apparently exactly the opposite of what Putin desires.
and a huge insurgency ... Afghanistan is an example of this. Putin has overplayed his hand... he has 3 options left to him.