FDR knew a Japanese attack was imminent ,what happens if there is no Pearl Harbor

Cool article and it fits with a favorite of mine alternative histories..

I knew Japan cut off all diplomatic ties before attacking but did not know it was just like they did in their preceding war with Russia. It goes to show that it's not just a new thing, the government will lie for a number of reasons, most behind the guise of 'national security". Both sides do it, but as far as WWII what happens if there is no flashpoint opening salvo. From this article, I read for the first time as late as October 41 we had meetings with the previous Japanese administration and the US rebuffed their peace proposals. Evidently, at least one Brit thought we had a damn good chance to get Japan troops out of Indo-China if we resumed oil shipments

Pretty sure sooner or later we are drug into the Pacific war, BUT HOW DOES IT GO DOWN AND WHY.

covertactionmagazine.com... ver-there-is-considerable-evidence-demonstrating-government-foreknowledge/

Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson wrote in his diary of a White House meeting on November 25, 1941, in which he explicitly raised the question of “how we should maneuver them into the position of firing the first shot.”[7]

British historian Captain Russell Grenfell wrote in 1952 that “no reasonably informed person can now believe that Japan made a villainous, unexpected attack on the United States. An attack was not only fully expected but was actually desired. It is beyond doubt that President Roosevelt wanted to get his country into the war, but for political reasons was most anxious to ensure that the first act of hostility came from the other side to a point that no self-respecting nation could endure without resort to arms. Mr. Oliver Lyttleton, then British minister of production, said in 1944: ‘Japan was provoked into attacking America at Pearl Harbor. It is a travesty of history to say that America was forced into the war.’”[12]quote

No wonder the U.S. Carriers were out at sea that morning.

And some study about the "Lend Lease" deals might be worthy 😁

Without Pearl Harbor Germany may have won their war. At least extended it by years. Without it England may have eventually signed an armistice and the troops deployed in France could have gone to the Eastern Front. Germany would have had a stable source of oil from the middle east without battling the English Navy. Russia would have been alone against a Germany getting a 2nd wind. Moscow falls and the Russian lines collapse.

Instead of facing down Soviet Russia after WW2 it would have been Nazi Germany and their satellites instead. And if America never entered the war the American NAZI party would have become a major political party. Possibly even absorbing either the Republican or Democrat party. And the civil rights movement of the 60s would never have happened. And it's doubtful that the US and the world would be anywhere near as advanced as it is now without the boost WW2 gave American technology and industrial might.

That aborted branch of history would have been a very dark one.

a reply to: putnam6 We knew war in the Pacific was coming and had plans for it since the 1920's (see War Plan Orange) but did not know where, we had to be lucky all over, and they only once. We were hoping to delay it until at least Spring when we had more carriers and planes. The carriers were taking planes and supplies to Midway and/or Wake, which were thought more vulnerable. If Japan had seized Midway they would have land planes in range of Hawaii. Roosevelt was a Navy man, no way he was OK with the attack.

As far as getting someone else to fire the first shot, Germany was the target. The US and Canadian Navy had joint command and was pretty much on the offense against Germany in the Atlantic throughout 1941, hoping to trigger Germany. Roosevelt wanted us in against Germany, not Japan. Japan would be a sideshow and a big drain on our resources. The first year in the Pacific was on a shoestring, compared to getting aid to Britain.

If we sat it out, Hitler or Stalin would have had Europe and Russia. We can argue over maybe which, but I much prefer it as it turned out.

originally posted by: TheBoomersRBusted
We knew war in the Pacific was coming and had plans for it since the 1920's (see War Plan Orange) but did not know where, we had to be lucky all over, and they only once.

Exactly. And the attack was thought to be aim at the Philippines since hauling the US fleet all the way across the Pacific would have been a difficult endeavor which the Japanese would have been aware of.

Of course they knew, the public was not ready/wanting for another war, and a linchpin event was needed, so they let one occur..it had to happen I suppose.

a reply to: putnam6 My opinion only but FDR and whoever were two concerned about looking like they were helping the Brits in the Pacific or the Communists in China....all of which we ended up doing anyway with the energy of national outrage after PH. Our control freaks had to make it our war.

By the way.....most of the foundries in Ohio and PA that made cannons for the north in the civil war were owned by British interests.

a reply to: putnam6

Pretty sure sooner or later we are drug into the Pacific war, BUT HOW DOES IT GO DOWN AND WHY.

Probably shortly after you get dragged into the Baltics , 22 could be an interesting year
Ask not for whom the bell tolls.

originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: putnam6

Pretty sure sooner or later we are drug into the Pacific war, BUT HOW DOES IT GO DOWN AND WHY.

Probably shortly after you get dragged into the Baltics , 22 could be an interesting year
Ask not for whom the bell tolls.

I meant sooner or later during WWII...

but you see war in the Baltics that soon? I hope not, but I don't see anyway the US would stay out of it, but with European and Russia involvement it's likely to be a cluster...


foreignpolicy.com...

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: TheBoomersRBusted
We knew war in the Pacific was coming and had plans for it since the 1920's (see War Plan Orange) but did not know where, we had to be lucky all over, and they only once.

Exactly. And the attack was thought to be aimed at the Philippines since hauling the US fleet all the way across the Pacific would have been a difficult endeavor that the Japanese would have been aware of.

I know there were hints and intelligence thought this and that for targets, but the article asserts they knew or should have known the Pearl Harbor location and only the time of the attack was unknown.

Most everything Ive read and researched previous though as said the Philippines and possibly Wake. They wound up hitting the trifecta.

With out Pearl Harbor, the US wouldn’t have been drawn into the war. Germany would have had the additional time necessary to develop atomic weapons and with their V2’s rockets to carry them, Germany would have concurred the world.

a reply to: putnam6

Thanks for the article, it looks interesting. I also think that the attack was known about and allowed to happen for the USA to have an excuse to get involved in WWII.

There was an article in the Italian Repubblica newspaper to commemorate the 80th Anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Unfortunately. it's behind a paywall, so I couldn't read it. However, I managed to grab from it a gif animation that shows how the attack was organised...

originally posted by: putnam6
I know there were hints and intelligence thought this and that for targets, but the article asserts they knew or should have known the Pearl Harbor location and only the time of the attack was unknown.

Nearly every Pacific Theater historian agrees that there was no way to know it was Pearl and the United States had planned on it being the Philippines or another western Pacific location (or possibly the Panama Canal). Articles like this are loaded with erroneous information like the alleged January 1941 Peruvian tip off that Pearl would be attacked. The Japanese had not even assembled plans at that time for a Pearl Harbor attack let alone able to leak them.

originally posted by: vonclod
Of course they knew, the public was not ready/wanting for another war, and a linchpin event was needed, so they let one occur..it had to happen I suppose.

I think the world would of been a different place, had it not happened, but hard to say how. The Germans could of won Europe, developed certain weapons. I think America would of got pulled in at some point regardless.

a reply to: ntech

Thinking the Soviets were causing the Nazis some issues without US boots on the ground. May have taken longer to win, may have needed US aid but
The Soviets, once ramped up, couldn’t be stopped
They flooded the Eastern front
Not taking anything away from the Allies Western front, it was massive and helped the Soviets but they had been destroying the Nazis after Stalingrad

Africa, hmm, maybe without the US

Japan on the other hand, the US saved Australia and always grateful for that

As for atomic weapons development, that was an international effort run by the US who stole a great many international geniuses

There might be new information based on the cryptanalysis of communications made by Velvalee Dickinson.
She was said to be an insider who communicated with high ranking Axis intelligence agents in the east.

This is why I posted this here ATS always comes through, with many opinions from a number of places.

Not to mention there are probably loads are still classified documents and information from America's involvement prior to and during WWII.

books.google.com...=onepage&q&f=false

Some things:

Details of US and UK espionage activities in the former USSR are still largely classified.
Many minor aspects of the Manhattan Project are still classified, including the people who were relocated, how much they were paid for the property, the names of the agents who contacted them,etc.

Much the assistance that the Mafia provided for US forces in Sicily and Italian mainland is still classified. Also the amounts that they were paid and any criminals activities that they committed is still classified.

The name of Allied informants in Eastern Europe, especially Poland, Romania and the former Yugoslavia are still classified.

Many details of Operation Paperclip, the program to bring Nazi scientists to the US and that allowed war criminals who were needed by the Allies (particularly the US) to escape justice, remain classified even though the majority of the participants are now deceased.

then there is this...were they ever released this is fro 6 years ago

www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: putnam6

I meant sooner or later during WWII...

but you see war in the Baltics that soon?

That's what Biden's call to Putin was about , yesterday could have been Biden's “piece of paper” moment , history has a tendency to repeat itself.
A Russian move for Ukraine is expected early next year which will free up China to move against Taiwan.