Is Christ God.

a reply to: Smigg
The evidence came from the statements in the New Testament. That's how theology works.
Philosophical proofs belong to philosophy.

By the way, can you confirm that you do not believe in the Atonement, i.e. the teaching that Christ died with the effect of saving us from our sin? I'm gathering evidence for a discussion with another member.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
The evidence came from the statements in the New Testament. That's how theology works.
Philosophical proofs belong to philosophy.

By the way, can you confirm that you do not believe in the Atonement, i.e. the teaching that Christ died with the effect of saving us from our sin? I'm gathering evidence for a discussion with another member.

There is no evidence in The New Testament, show me one statement from Christ where without any doubt He proclaims to be God, I can show you statements from Christ in The New Testament that show Him without any doubt to be a different entity from God. Not very good Theologists were they.

If Christ was Gods plan then what purpose did His murder and crucifixion serve ? was it so He could rise from the dead and so cement a desired belief in Him and God, or was he crucified from the perspective of dying for our sins.
For me both helped cement the eventual outcome in regards to the masses but from a personal standpoint it's not something I focus on.

a reply to: Smigg

So is Jesus Christ God Himself creator of the universe ?
I believe the answer is no, Jesus was The Son Of God in the flesh, a separate entity with His own identity and free will.

Regardless of whether you believe Jesus is God the Father, the Bible tells us that Jesus WAS the Creator of the universe...

John 1:1-4

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Colossians 1:15-19

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Smigg

So is Jesus Christ God Himself creator of the universe ?
I believe the answer is no, Jesus was The Son Of God in the flesh, a separate entity with His own identity and free will.

Regardless of whether you believe Jesus is God the Father, the Bible tells us that Jesus WAS the Creator of the universe...

John 1:1-4

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Colossians 1:15-19

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

All you just posted has to be construed to believe Christ is God, Show me where Christ Himself proclaimed to be God, Christ refers to His will and Gods will, He describes God to be His Farther and our Father, God spoke at Christs baptism, Christ referred to Himself as the "son of man".
All good evidence that Christ and God are separate beings but strangely ignored.

originally posted by: Smigg
There is no evidence in The New Testament, show me one statement from Christ where without any doubt He proclaims to be God,

I will link you to my thread The Word became flesh, because I see no point in going over old ground repeatedly. John ch1 is as much New Testament as anything in the gospels.

I have also done threads on "The meaning of Incarnation", and on "Jesus is a man", which focuses on the "man" side of the doctrine that Christ is BOTH God AND man. That is why the debating strategy of emphasising the second aspect in order to deny the first doesn't work.

Does the Atonement rest on the Crucifixion or the Resurrection? Both really, in the same way that vistory in the battle of Waterloo needed both Wellington and Blucher.
The key to the atonement is the self-offering of Christ (self-offering being the only kind of offering that God ever really wanted). But the Resurrection was necessary to turn the event from defeat into victory, and it is the key to bringing us into the process.

I've done an entire thread series on New Testament Salvation.
But see especially the summary thread For he shall save his people from their sins

a reply to: Smigg

All you just posted has to be construed to believe Christ is God, Show me where Christ Himself proclaimed to be God, Christ refers to His will and Gods will, He describes God to be His Farther and our Father, God spoke at Christs baptism, Christ referred to Himself as the "son of man".

All good evidence that Christ and God are separate beings but strangely ignored.

There's just as much evidence that Christ and God are "one", but strangely ignored.

The Father and the Son make up the Alpha and Omega, which together proclaim to "ONE GOD".

Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 - Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 21:6 - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:13 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

There's plenty more that Jesus revealed about this revelation to his disciples (which is why we have the book of Revelation) if you need them, but you should start here.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DISRAELI

Hate to say it man but Arius was right... Perhaps he was the last ditch effort to get "christianity" just as Jesus proclaimed?

His arguments were sound, and the other side found it insulting to consider Jesus subordinate to the Father... to the point where Athanasius (who was only a deacon at the time) actually struck Arius during the arguments... Im sure Jesus would have been proud... and later "they" ended up poisoning him and blaming it on his beliefs saying his belly exploded which was clearly a lie...

its been a scam ever since brother.... not trying to change your mind on this... we've been through it numerous times over the years....

Just sayin...

And then it become hearsay to say anything else after this event, imagine how the threat of death being burned at the stake negates any theological discussion and ingrains the dogma deeply into the church as fact of scripture for about 1400 years.
I don't think the people advocating the trinity in this thread realize the historical impact that has on the debate in 2021, because if they did they would be digging deeper to find out the truth like you have.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

And then it become hearsay to say anything else after this event, imagine how the threat of death being burned at the stake negates any theological discussion and ingrains the dogma deeply into the church as fact of scripture for about 1400 years.

I don't think the people advocating the trinity in this thread realize the historical impact that has on the debate in 2021, because if they did they would be digging deeper to find out the truth like you have.

The scriptures speak for themselves regardless of historical interpretations.

As for Arius's view that Jesus being the only begotten Son of God proves that he came afterwards, only proves that Jesus came in the flesh at a later date, which we already know. Here's how the Bible explains that...

John 1:1,2,10,14

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Opening up that can of worms again is precisely what Satan would want us to do.

I think the scribes and Pharisees would understand your point more than I do.

I feel that knowing God and his Son in your heart is what the bible will teach if you stop thinking so much and trying to be scholars.

I doubt Satan is effected by how I see his creator and mine. If I turned out to be wrong and Jesus is a mesh with his Father yet somehow not allowed to know what his Father knows and prays to the other part of himself that would change, nothing! He is still our creator and we will come to know all truth in the end.

I am expressing my own conclusion and don't care if others feel different, like I decided not to take part in any Holydays no Christmas, no Easter bunnies' no Halloween, no Birthdays these decisions are from my own conclusions I don't judge anyone for making their decisions on something we are NOT directly told.

I think if Jesus were God he would have said so and the parable where he sent his Son the property owner would have came himself.
We are all children of our creator and so are the angels. I believe Jesus was one of the first born of God and with him from the beginning of his creating with others of his kind.

Many scriptures show the human is "in God" too Jesus said we are a part of him just as he is a part of his Father.
1 John 4:15
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

1 Corinthians 8:6
Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

a reply to: Deetermined

What is the meaning of God in the bible?
We are told there are many Gods we should not put them before our creator nor worship them.
There is simply no need for us to stress over these points we will know in time.

The whole basis here even though it clearly says the word was WITH not a part of god, is the word being a god.

Source text and translations
Koine Greek Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

Sahidic Coptic to English In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word existed with the God, and a God was the Word.

Personally I don't endeavor to uncover the root and study the text for the answers instead I simply ask and keep asking for understanding with an open heart.
I will not decide i can't be wrong because we have not been directly told this information yet.

a reply to: Deetermined

There's just as much evidence that Christ and God are "one", but strangely ignored.

Not sure I understand you here because as DISRAELI said most Christians all over the world believe they are one.
People who feel as I do are a few.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Smigg
How can the United States of America have fifty states and yet be one state?

But those states are equal thing, Jesus said his Father was greater than he and he did not know many things his Father knows.

a reply to: Randomname2

He came down from Heaven God in Human Form thru the immaculate conception to Mary,

Then why say that Jesus was chosen for this ? Did he chose part of himself? Also it makes clear Jesus had a choice and volunteered.

a reply to: DISRAELI

But the problem with "independent exploration", when taken too far. is that it leads on to questioning of the basic

Or questioning why so many worship Mary and many other things, People need to question what they have been told and pray, constantly for understanding.

There are many who are not able to read well or understand what they read and yet, God will give them all they need to know IN THEIR HEART AND MIND! They just have to ask and keep asking seek and keep seeking!

a reply to: Crowfoot

Exactly why we have gods truth written in us, it created the conscience if we care to develop it, it gives us truth.
We can ask our creator for the direction we should be going.

The bible prophecies come true that is not so with other books, they are all taken from the true imo.

At one point I read everything i could find a ferocious reader of information a book a day in some cases.
I learned to look to the heart and not those things we are made with everything included if we stop and humbly ask we get the message.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

The whole basis here even though it clearly says the word was WITH not a part of god, is the word being a god.

Maybe I should post that verse for you again...

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a reply to: SeaWorthy

Not sure I understand you here because as DISRAELI said most Christians all over the world believe they are one.
People who feel as I do are a few.

Yes, most Christians do believe they are one, but as you can tell by this thread and others here on ATS, many don't understand that.

a reply to: Deetermined

3 points

Did you know Greek speaking Christians that believe in the Trinity don't use John 1:1 to support the Trinity....why is that?
Because they understand what the original Greek means, and it's not what English speaking people think, ponder that.

Also context, keep reading, John 1:18 multiple versions just to be sure you don't miss the point.

No one has seen God at any time. The only Son, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.

None has seen God at any time; the only born Son, he being in the bosom of the Father, he has declared.

Seems pretty clear from this scripture, what can we learn, Jesus can be considered both a 'god' like Satan is the "god of this world" and the "Son". Also Jesus relationship to God is more intimate than any other spiritual being, they are so close that Jesus knows how God thinks and can duplicate what God himself would do. And Jesus was born/created by God himself. Jesus had a beginning, probably over 14 billions years old, whereas God his father never had a beginning.
People married for 50 years get to know their spouse really well, imagine being so close to somebody like that for billions of years, you could finish every sentence they make, you would know them so well.

Here is the real problem though, by denying that Jesus "soul" died for us in the ransom to redeem you personally, you are denying the ransom, since God did not die for your sins, his son only did, you refute the ransom in a way you don't even understand. Christians that do not accept the ransom as it really is, cannot be saved in the future judgment day, that has been given to Jesus to do by God.

And that my friend is a huge issue for billions of Christians today.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: SeaWorthy

Not sure I understand you here because as DISRAELI said most Christians all over the world believe they are one.
People who feel as I do are a few.

Yes, most Christians do believe they are one, but as you can tell by this thread and others here on ATS, many don't understand that.

Well I think there are not many even on this thread lol!
The few here that believe as I do are defiantly few.

many don't understand that

My understanding can only come from my heart with constant prayer.

I am careful of my thoughts and actions toward other Christians

Proverbs 11:2 “When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.”
Proverbs 16:5 “The LORD detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.”
Proverbs 16:18 “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.”