Why Does Biological, Organic Life Exist in a Universe that is Inorganic ?

originally posted by: whereislogic

Modern research supports the idea that the basic categories of plants and animals have changed little over vast periods of time.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
...
Lastly, what are vast periods of time? Where were humans a million years ago?

1st question: Milllions of years. 2nd question: Humans didn't exist a million years ago.

Details regarding the research referred to in the article I used can be found here (note also the box about human evolution):

QUESTION 4: Has All Life Descended From a Common Ancestor? (The Origin of Life​—Five Questions Worth Asking)

I don't want to drift too far off-topic, since this thread is more about the origin or emergence of life specifically. Obviously, what happened after that is related, but not a crucial subject regarding the question in the OP that I completed and re-phrased slightly some comments back (hopefully without changing the essence of the question).

For those who want to know more about the Genesis account (and answers to questions such as "in what order did God create the various lifeforms?", "how long could it have taken for the categories mentioned?", etc.):

Science and the Genesis Account (Was Life Created?)

edit: Oh, it doesn't actually list the complete order in the article, for that you would have to click the many links to the Genesis account itself to see what is created on each 'creative day'. This article discusses a common question asked about the order presented in the book Life​—How Did It Get Here? By Evolution or by Creation? The title is a topic also discussed in the article above, which is the main reason I linked it because it's relevant to understand in evaluating the order of creation presented in Genesis:

Did Each Creative Day Always Finish What It Started? (Awake!—1991)

And this is the chapter in that book where the order is discussed in detail (but it's discussed above as well):

Chapter 3: What Does Genesis Say?

a reply to: whereislogic

Listened to this talk last night. Really enjoyed it. The brother says something my dad always says. It's up to the person to search for God. If you're not searching for him you're not doing what you're supposed to be.

The people here that are arguing aren't looking. They can't be taken seriously. Cooperton always gives good logical explanations that are easy to understand and how it is impossible to explain away God in the design of life.

"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things. And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell, so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children.’"-Acts 17:24-28.

originally posted by: cooperton

Any comment on chaperone proteins?

Nope, not really...

originally posted by: whereislogic
More detailed evidence as to why I have concluded that the chance (odds) of life emerging by chance and according to how the forces that govern chemistry and physics operate, is zero, as in it cannot happen that way, are discussed on page 8.

Once again, "chance" is used incorrectly. Life is in this universe so the odds are 100%. We are far from understanding how our universe works, and how it worked 10 billion or more years ago, was a much different place then, so I guess since we do not know then it must be God. What happens when we do figure it all out will our God go down the same path as 1000 Gods before him?

originally posted by: randomuser

The people here that are arguing aren't looking. They can't be taken seriously. Cooperton always gives good logical explanations that are easy to understand and how it is impossible to explain away God in the design of life.

His answer is always that if it is something we do not know yet then it must be God. We did this many times in the past for what we do not know.

a reply to: whereislogic


Humans are pretty good at creating stories, how are these, not abstract thoughts? At the end of the day, we need more than just human words to suggest God. Faith might be OK for some, but it is what it is...The more proof one needs the less faith one has...

originally posted by: whereislogic

Both teachings are popular in various sections of Christendom, the counterfeit version of Christianity that was prophecied in the Bible (a.k.a. the great apostasy).

How do you choose what is the "real" religion and what isn't? Did God teach you that or another human? There is no reason to try and prove anything if one has faith.

originally posted by: cooperton
You don't even know how to discuss biology. You're just an inflated balloon of hubris.

Where did you get your Ph.D. in biology, and why are you smarter than 99% of them all? Must be a tough throne to sit on all by yourself...

originally posted by: FlyingFox
I would turn it around and ask, what is the point of a lifeless universe?

That might be part of the answer.

Is there even a point to be made? The term life is an abstract creation we humans use to define complex chemical reactions. To the universe, there is no such thing as life outside of a human construct. We invented the term life and then say it is special.

originally posted by: Phantom423

And how about those magic electrons? Was it this guy?

We have discovered...

Associate Professor Yasuhiro Oba from Hokkaido University, Japan, led an international team of researchers who discovered the presence of a prebiotic organic molecule called hexamethylenetetramine (HMT) in three different carbon-rich meteorites. Their discovery validates models and theories that propose HMT as an important molecule in the formation of organic compounds in interstellar environments.

These meteors come from a time long before Earth. As I said we really do not know the makeup of the universe before 9 billion years ago with massive supper novas that slowly created the natural elements we have today. It seems rocks in space from back then are teaming with prebiotic organic molecules so how that played out we do not know, but if seems life will be throughout the universe.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
if it is something we do not know yet then it must be God.

Everything that we did not know that we ended up defining with names that we gave eachother and words people constructed for some reason to identify what they found didn't end up becoming being there by us, whether we defined what we found or not, it was still done by ourselves of something we apparently came to see.

a reply to: AlienView

Carbon.

Carbon is one of the most reactive elements in the known periodic table.

Carbon is one of the most pervasive elements in the known universe.

That's why biological life, as we know it, exists in a universe that appears inorganic.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Where did you get your Ph.D. in biology, and why are you smarter than 99% of them all? Must be a tough throne to sit on all by yourself...

Growing number of scientists disbelieve the validity of evolution

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Nope, not really... (i have no comment on chaperone proteins)

... yet you just claimed whereislogic is close-minded in the last page. Do you see the irony?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

These meteors come from a time long before Earth. As I said we really do not know the makeup of the universe before 9 billion years ago with massive supper novas that slowly created the natural elements we have today. It seems rocks in space from back then are teaming with prebiotic organic molecules so how that played out we do not know, but if seems life will be throughout the universe.

Given that the boiling point of hexamethylenetetramine is 280 degrees Celsius, it is clear that this molecule did not come with the meteorite through the atmosphere. The atmosphere would have vaporized this molecule off the asteroid. Instead it makes far more sense that it picked up organic molecules when it hit organic life upon impact with the earth's surface

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Where did you get your Ph.D. in biology, and why are you smarter than 99% of them all? Must be a tough throne to sit on all by yourself...

Growing number of scientists disbelieve the validity of evolution

originally posted by: Xtrozero

Nope, not really... (i have no comment on chaperone proteins)

... yet you just claimed whereislogic is close-minded in the last page. Do you see the irony?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

These meteors come from a time long before Earth. As I said we really do not know the makeup of the universe before 9 billion years ago with massive supper novas that slowly created the natural elements we have today. It seems rocks in space from back then are teaming with prebiotic organic molecules so how that played out we do not know, but if seems life will be throughout the universe.

Given that the boiling point of hexamethylenetetramine is 280 degrees Celsius, it is clear that this molecule did not come with the meteorite through the atmosphere. The atmosphere would have vaporized this molecule off the asteroid. Instead it makes far more sense that it picked up organic molecules when it hit organic life upon impact with the earth's surface

The boiling point of a human being is only 100 degrees Celsius - and they have entered the Earth's atmosphere from space (returning from the Moon) and not been vapourised .....

(The molecule concerned wasn't sitting on the outside of the meteorite )

originally posted by: AndyMayhew


The boiling point of a human being is only 100 degrees Celsius - and they have entered the Earth's atmosphere from space (returning from the Moon) and not been vapourised .....

(The molecule concerned wasn't sitting on the outside of the meteorite

)

Link to the organic molecules being on the inside of the meteorite?

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: AndyMayhew


The boiling point of a human being is only 100 degrees Celsius - and they have entered the Earth's atmosphere from space (returning from the Moon) and not been vapourised .....

(The molecule concerned wasn't sitting on the outside of the meteorite

)

Link to the organic molecules being on the inside of the meteorite?

Link to the organic molecules being on the outside of the meteorite?

a reply to: AndyMayhew

Inside/outside doesn't matter. Organic molecules are found in meteorites:


Organic matter in ancient meteorites
Mark A Sephton Author Notes
Astronomy & Geophysics, Volume 45, Issue 2, April 2004, Pages 2.8–2.14, doi.org...
Published: 01 April 2004

Abstract
The carbonaceous chondrites are fragments of ancient asteroids that have remained relatively unprocessed since the formation of the solar system 4.56 billion years ago. These carbon-rich meteorites contain a variety of extraterrestrial organic molecules that are a record of chemical evolution in the early solar system and subsequent aqueous and thermal processes on asteroids. Recent theories suggest that similar extraterrestrial organic mixtures may have acted as the starting materials for life on Earth.

And let's clarify the difference between organic and inorganic once and for all:

ORGANIC: A molecule that contains CARBON - example Glucose C6H12O6 - a monosaccharide containing 6 CARBON ATOMS.

INORGANIC: A molecule that DOES NOT contain CARBON - example table salt NaCL (sodium chloride)

originally posted by: AndyMayhew

Link to the organic molecules being on the outside of the meteorite?

Unless they're intact cells or at the very least properly folded quaternary proteins it wouldnt even matter anyway... generating amino acids was never the problem with abiogenesis theory, it's the polymerization of these monomers into properly folded quaternary proteins in water that is the dilemma.

a reply to: Phantom423

If they're on the surface of the meteorites then Occam's razor would insist it was due to its impact with organic life when it hit the ground on earth. A hot meteorite impacting grass for example would get contaminated with various organic molecules. There's even amino acids in our atmosphere that an impending meteorite would be collecting.

a reply to: cooperton

Doesn't matter. If organic compounds were on the surface and the meteorite was headed towards Earth, they would burn up anyway.

What matters is that the vast majority of organic compounds, to include nucleic acids, have been found INSIDE meteorites. This has been known for a long time. It's old news.

All of the bases in DNA and RNA have now been found in meteorites
The discovery adds to evidence that suggests life’s precursors came from space

More of the ingredients for life have been found in meteorites.

Space rocks that fell to Earth within the last century contain the five bases that store information in DNA and RNA, scientists report April 26 in Nature Communications.

These “nucleobases” — adenine, guanine, cytosine, thymine and uracil — combine with sugars and phosphates to make up the genetic code of all life on Earth. Whether these basic ingredients for life first came from space or instead formed in a warm soup of earthly chemistry is still not known (SN: 9/24/20). But the discovery adds to evidence that suggests life’s precursors originally came from space, the researchers say.

www.sciencenews.org...

Important Note: To date, no magic wands have been found in meteorites.