Yes I am mad

I am so mad, at the laws that are letting Terri die of starvation and thirst, that it makes me almost sick literally! Even a person on death row gets a final meal and dies peacefully with an injection that puts him/her to sleep, no pain, hunger o..........r thirst! Why let her go through this? Why? We cannot say she doesn't feel any pain, or that she is not begging on the inside for food and water, but cannot say it out loud, this is plain and simple.................murder!!
I bet if a person had their dog in front of that hospice, and said they would not feed or give the dog any water, the person would be put in jail for cruelty to animals. let's not be cruel to our animals but ..........hey it's alright to be so cruel to a woman, who is not capable of saying what SHE wanted, but.......yes...... only the words of her husband are being considered by the law.
If he does not want her any longer, if she is a burden, then go get divorce papers, and move on with your life, but in the meantime.....please let Terri have one also!!!!

[edit on 013131p://382. by angeleyes101]

Originally posted by angeleyes101
Why let her go through this? We cannot say she doesn't feel any pain, or that she is not begging on the inside for food and water, but cannot say it out loud, this is plain and simple.................murder!!

Well, from an epistemological view, sure, how can we know? But how can we know anything?

Anyway, doctors and experts say she can't feel S**T!! She's a vegetable.

But, is it murder? Yes!

According to her husband, this is what she would have wanted.

Makes me want to throw up, too. And start thinking about a living trust/will or whatever you call it.

How can we know, the doctor's are even disagreeing!
The issue arose again this week when a neurologist, Dr. William Cheshire of the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Fla., said in a court document that he believed it’s more likely that Schiavo is in a “minimally conscious state” than a persistent vegetative one.

In a persistent vegetative state, a person is awake but not aware of oneself or the environment, and making only reflex movements. In a minimally conscious state, a person’s behavior shows inconsistent but reproducible signs of consciousness. For example, a patient can occasionally follow simple commands, scratch the nose if it itches, or try to use an object like a comb for its correct use.
_______________________________________________________
If she can scratch her nose if it is itchy......don't you think she can feel hunger, and thist?!?! Morally.......this is wrong.plain and simple!

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Great article!! In fact, let's continue with it:

Conflicting diagnoses
Cheshire was not available for an interview, the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville said in a statement. It said that at the request of the state of Florida he observed Schiavo at her bedside and reviewed her medical history but did not conduct an extensive examination of her.

In his affidavit, Cheshire said Schiavo showed several behaviors “that I believe cast a reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis” of persistent vegetative state. For example, he said, her face brightens and she smiles in response to the the voice of familiar people such as her parents. Her eyes don’t track moving objects consistently, but “she does fixate her gaze on colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time,” he said.

Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her,” Cheshire said in the affidavit.

Hmm, he only spent 90 minutes and did not conduct an extensive examination. But that's a hell of a lot more than a lot of other experts have spent with her.

But the first part of that sentence, in fact, “starts to meet the criteria for vegetative state,” said Dr. Gene Sung, director of the neurocritical care and stroke section of the University of Southern California.

Sung, who has not been involved with the case, said of Cheshire that “unfortunately his feelings, and possibly his religious beliefs, are affecting his medical decision.” The Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, which notes on its Web site that it was founded by Christian bioethicists, lists Cheshire as its director of biotech ethics.

wha wha WHAT?!?!?!

Sung said the original diagnosis was based on repeated examinations by “very distinguished neurologists” and he called himself as comfortable with that diagnosis as he can be without examining Schiavo himself.

Dr. Roger Albin, a professor of neurology at the University of Michigan who also was not involved in the Schiavo case, agreed. “I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt the diagnosis... I don’t think her evaluation could have been done better.”

armchair diagnosis, huh?

He also said he’s not aware of any evidence that a person could emerge from years in a persistent vegetative state and enter a minimally conscious state, especially in a case like Schiavo’s, where blood flow to the brain had been temporarily cut off in 1990.

Last examination in 2002
The diagnosis has been a court matter, both in 2000 and in 2002. In the latter year, a Florida judge agreed with four neurologists that Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. Brain scans and examinations were conducted in 2002, but no new neurological evaluation has been ordered since, and the medical record has been closed.

In 2002, Dr. Ronald Cranford, an expert on persistent vegetative states who was brought into the case by Schiavo’s husband, testified that key centers of Schiavo’s brain probably had no viable neurons left. She was not actually fixing her gaze on her mother, as had been suggested, but rather showing a reflex action seen in patients in a vegetative state.

the prosecution rests

(Cranford said Thursday he still has no doubt the diagnosis is correct and that Cheshire is “flat-out wrong.”)

Two other neurologists also agreed with the diagnosis, including one appointed by the court to examine and evaluate Schiavo.

the prosecution rests...again

Testimony of parents' experts
But doctors representing Schiavo’s parents at the 2002 hearing had a different conclusion. Dr. William Hammesfahr, a Florida neurologist, said his examination of Schiavo found she is “definitely aware of her mother” and communicating through following instructions and in looking at people. And a radiologist said a brain scan in 2002 showed more normal appearance than one in 1996 and said there was a “significant probability that she would improve” with certain treatments.

whoa, why wern't we told about that!?!!

But the court was not given any objective data to support that latter assertion, said Dr. Timothy Quill, director of the Center for Palliative Care and Clinical Ethics of the University of Rochester Medical Center, writing in Thursday’s issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.

Oh.

Hammesfahr has been a figure of controversy. In 2001, the Florida Department of Health accused him of falsely advertising a neurological treatment and exploiting a patient for financial gain. The treatment is “contrary to current neurological knowledge,” the department said. Hammesfahr denied the accusations, and in an interview Thursday he said the probation and fine against him were overturned on appeal.

OOOHHHH!!!

On Thursday, Dr. Lawrence J. Schneiderman of the University of California, San Diego, a specialist in bioethics of medical futility and end-of-life care, said in an interview, “He’s a quack, to put it the politest way I can.”

quack quack

Hammesfahr said he believes Schiavo can be helped by treatment and that numerous other neurologists, some of whom actually examined Schiavo, agreed.

“I’m not the only person who has said she can be rehabilitated,” he said. “Are we all quacks?

You're right. Doctors can't agree on this case either.

I agree with Angeleyes.

Starving someone to death - which is basically what they are doing to Terri - has to be one of the most barbarous ways of killing a person. I do not believe that this is a natural death. If it is true that Terri would continue to live if her feeding tube was replaced, then removing it is murder.

We consider ourselves civilised and yet condone this ?

its all part of the plan...this way the Libs can push for a more "humain, fast, and clam" death...and completly legalize euthanasia....

Look whoever said that we would not be put in jail or fined for being cruel to our pets is so wrong!!!!!

Let's see here, this woman, has never, need I say it again ..no living will, just hearsay from her husband that she said it to hi during conversation.It was never put in writing.so that does not give me the satisfaction that this woman, wanted her life to end this way, so inhumane.

Would you starve your dog or cat? Would you starve and not allow water to them or a sibling, brother, sister, parent?

This is a moral issue, never should have become political but it is, and it can't be changed. Are you a Doctor, and do you profess to know for a fact, 100% sure she is not suffering, or are you just going on the words of some of the expert doctors who say she is not suffering, while other expert doctors say she is...

Originally posted by angeleyes101
Would you starve your dog or cat? Would you starve and not allow water to them or a sibling, brother, sister, parent?

Yeah, I would. If that was the only legal way for them to die. I wouldn't want to see someone I love living as a vegetable for 15 years. They would be living a pointless life, wasting money, and possibly going through pain. No one knows what people who are in that condition feel. For all we know they could be in constant pain. It seems cruel to keep someone like that alive for so long.

Originally posted by BangorangRufio

Originally posted by angeleyes101
Would you starve your dog or cat? Would you starve and not allow water to them or a sibling, brother, sister, parent?

Yeah, I would. If that was the only legal way for them to die. I wouldn't want to see someone I love living as a vegetable for 15 years. They would be living a pointless life, wasting money, and possibly going through pain. No one knows what people who are in that condition feel. For all we know they could be in constant pain. It seems cruel to keep someone like that alive for so long.

You wouldn't.but her parents want her to live, are willing to care for her..can't see a problem with that.

You said "No one knows what people who are in that condition feel. For all we know they could be in constant pain. It seems cruel to keep someone like that alive for so long."
Exactly! My point....so, if you don't know and the expert octors don't know, how do we know she is not begging for food and water, but just cannot say "Please feed me and give me water, I'm dying, and i want to live."How do you know she is not suffering, this way, nobody knows, and that is the issue, a moral issue of treating a human as a human no matter what. Let her husband go on with his life, his guilty conscious can't while she is alive, he is breaking her parents hearts by doing this, the ones who love her and want her alive......can;t do anything......because he wants her dead.

Yeah, it sucks that she has to go out this way, starvation. I wish people would feel this outraged and passionate about other people throughout the world who starve every day...and are conscious of it.

You have just met one then.
I would not begrudge my worst enemy food or water.this is making me sick.

The Husband's Lawyer.....shall I call him a 'Liar?"

Today Michael Schiavo's lawyer at a news briefing said in response to a question about Terri, .......how she looked.........he answered,,,,"She looks beautiful."

Beautiful?!?What? How can a person .....dying.of thirst, and starvation look beautiful after 8 days with no food........ or water, and dying a slow death? Now, after hearing him say this, I am more inclined to believe the parents that she looks like she just came from a concentration camp.........doesn't that seem more logical than.beautiful..........after 8 days of no nourishment?

[edit on 27-3-2005 by angeleyes101]

This has made me think..........a lot!! Before Jesus was crucified, the highest authorties did not want to be the ones to put him to death so they asked, the people his family shall we say..and they..decided to kill him,he carried his own cross, was whipped, had a crown of thorns on his side, they let him suffer on the cross, ...left him to die of starvation, thirst and hanging on the cross, when someone could have saved him....his own people could have.

Now Christopher Reeve..when he got in his accident and was paralyzed, and needed a breathing tube in order to breath, could not take care of himself at all, his wifehad to do everything for him..so should he have been put to death? ..Or was it different because he was able to speak and say what he wanted because at first, when it happened and he was told he was paralysed from the neck down, he asked his wife to let him die.......but then...he changed his mind and wanted to live..........so no-one knows for sure if Terri did say this was her wish and......if this is her wish now because she cannot speak...

[edit on 29-3-2005 by angeleyes101]

And understand a misdirection when it's beating you over the head!
maybe focusing on the facts that several reports "die" deaths by being "starved" for media coverage, thus "killing" more Americans than this one!!!!

- Rumsfeld's Pentagon took away $200 Billion in spending authority from the Air Force

- This US government is arming Pakistan

- Medicare applications have been shifted to being so complex, it's estimated that less than 5% of the 20 million low-income American who qualify will utilize it.

- Bush's ratings are below 45%, yet judges & creationist religion is being rammed down our throats

- Ebola is breaking out in Africa, while Avian Flu is killing people in Asia, both of which can end up here

- Deaths & breathing related illnesses are skyrocketing due to carcigens in the air....with further relaxing of industry air pollution standards coming

Yet, you bemoan this one woman. You never made a dead frog's muscles move via electric currents in biology class, huh? She's not Jesus, nor is she at an iota of the same brain capacity that Reeves was.

one thing that has real p---ed me off in this isthat we are told that it is cruel to let her continue to live but yet they f'ing STARVE her.:bash:
from what i understand starvation is one of the most painfull ways to die. now of course they can not "put her to sleep" like a dog because that would be murder. as far as i'm concerned the removeing of food and water is not only murder but cruel and unusual punishment not to mention torture!
mabe we should do the same for these pyscopaths they are calling doctors. just strap them down and not feed them or give them water, just to see how they like it before they die. oh sorry wouldn't we then be murdering them.

if she had to die they should make life as comfortable as possible. even those about to face the electric chair are treated decently, and chances are they killed someone.:bnghd:she had after all been condemed to death for the crime of being severly mentaly handicapped. so why not just give her one hell of a nice trip with morphean. but no we can't do that just make her suffer one of the most cruel forms of punishment for her crimes and starve her to death.how can this be even considered as humain treatment. why not have fun and play with some hot irons, a rack and hell draw and quarter her at least it would have been quicker.

i think it is time to review laws. if someone is sentanced to death it should be done as quickly and painlessly as possible. not drawn out with torture. i hope she comes back and haunts the ba----d that was formerly her "devoted" (b--- s--t) husband. mabe cause him to die in the most horrific way possible, full of terror.

Originally posted by Bout Time
And understand a misdirection when it's beating you over the head!
maybe focusing on the facts that several reports "die" deaths by being "starved" for media coverage, thus "killing" more Americans than this one!!!!

- Rumsfeld's Pentagon took away $200 Billion in spending authority from the Air Force

- This US government is arming Pakistan

- Medicare applications have been shifted to being so complex, it's estimated that less than 5% of the 20 million low-income American who qualify will utilize it.

- Bush's ratings are below 45%, yet judges & creationist religion is being rammed down our throats

- Ebola is breaking out in Africa, while Avian Flu is killing people in Asia, both of which can end up here

- Deaths & breathing related illnesses are skyrocketing due to carcigens in the air....with further relaxing of industry air pollution standards coming

Yet, you bemoan this one woman. You never made a dead frog's muscles move via electric currents in biology class, huh? She's not Jesus, nor is she at an iota of the same brain capacity that Reeves was.

Can I say you are very ignorant....!!!!!!!!!!
Everything you said was a decision that was made by the government,..........and congress.Religion is not being rammed down our throats ...if you don't like it......simple............turn off your tv, or, bypass the religious threads.
Ebola has been a problem that the scientists have been trying to figure out how to fix, not that they don't care about the thousands or more dying from it,....and don't put me into a class with the ones 'who don't care about other things in society' I simply believe this woman deserved more than heresay..and a life..now they may have to put a breathing tube in the pope..how ironic...they have to insert one in ihm to keep him alive, which is only right , yet they took Terri's out to make her die..so in regards to your bold statement.........my head is not up my A$$ i welcome all opinions but not insults! or just plain ignorant people.

[edit on 30-3-2005 by angeleyes101]

[edit on 30-3-2005 by angeleyes101]

Originally posted by angeleyes101
Can I say you are very ignorant....!!!!!!!!!!
Everything you said was a decision that was made by the government,..........and congress.Religion is not being rammed down our throats ...if you don't like it......simple............turn off your tv, or, bypass the religious threads.
Ebola has been a problem that the scientists have been trying to figure out how to fix, not that they don't care about the thousands or more dying from it,....and don't put me into a class with the ones 'who don't care about other things in society' I simply believe this woman deserved more than heresay..and a life..now they may have to put a breathing tube in the pope..how ironic...they have to insert one in ihm to keep him alive, which is only right , yet they took Terri's out to make her die..so in regards to your bold statement.........my head is not up my A$$ i welcome all opinions but not insults! or just plain ignorant people.

No insult directed or intended, please don't take one away from my post.
I was speaking to those fellow posters to yourself that expend anything more than the most minute period of time talking about this grand mis-direction.
There are to many real & important transgressions to follow & rectify, there is too obvious a catering to a radical fringe element by the party that controls all three branches of government, to be missed here.

On this woman: please don't compare her to Reeves or the Pope, as there is no comparison...she died long ago & is kept alive artificially. I too have issue with the tube; it should be immediate death.

Well......I guess we can agree to disagree...........sorry for getting mad,........you are entitled to your opinion .just as I am to mine.........so no offense taken...now.....I apologize for getting mad and calling you ignorant.