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Are Street Guns Shrinking - Shootings-to-Deaths Ratio Shows a Relatively Small Chance of Dying.
page: 2share:
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan
Probably, in most cases. Aren't there a lot of cases of police failing to take down suspects with every service caliber? There's an infamous one involving .45 ACP with maybe 15 shots.
blog.cheaperthandirt.com...
"I enjoy a good sales pitch. Part of being an American is being oversold on everything. This vacuum picks up the dirt that other vacuums leave behind! This home gym will give you a flat stomach by exercising just 10 minutes a day, plus it folds under your bed for storage! This ammo has so much stopping power that the government tried to ban it from civilian purchase! Yeah, right. When it comes to ammunition selection for personal defense, we need to separate real from hype before making a purchase. If you make a bad purchase on a vacuum or a home gym, you are likely to be a bit embarrassed. Making a bad purchase on defensive ammunition could have dire consequences. Let’s talk about some fundamentals so you’ll be able to make an informed decision.
Regardless of velocity, the bullet crushes the tissue in front of it as it penetrates or tunnels through that tissue. After the infamous “Miami Firefight” of 1986, the FBI set a minimum penetration requirement of 12 inches for their ammunition. This became the industry standard. All bullets penetrate and leave behind a measurable permanent cavity, even the .22 LR. All bullets also create a temporary cavity, although actually measuring it is nearly impossible. Fragmentation is dependent on two factors; bullet design and velocity. Impact velocities above 2,000 feet per second can cause fragmentation in full metal jacket bullets with thin jacketing, such as M193 5.56 NATO. Soft point or hollow point rounds may also fragment at the same velocities.
In rifle rounds, fragmentation accounts for a lot of the bullet’s ability to destroy tissue and stop bad guys in their tracks. Making slower pistol rounds fragment requires specialized bullet designs that fragment very easily. The problem with these rounds, such as the Glaser Safety Slug, is that they fragment immediately without penetrating. They are advertised as being safer to shoot indoors because they won’t penetrate walls and kill innocents on the other side. This is true! However, a round that can’t penetrate two layers of brittle sheetrock isn’t going to devastate a 250-pound man coming at you with a crowbar either. It will break up immediately upon hitting his skin, shower the first few inches of fat and muscle with little specks of lead, and fail to reach his vital organs. This is not what we want. At this time there is no magic pistol round that is safe when you miss, but “knows” when it hits a bad guy and decides that now is the time to penetrate and then fragment. Any round capable of penetrating tissue to FBI minimum standards is also capable of penetrating doors and walls. Fragmentation in pistol rounds falls into just two categories, won’t happen and fragments without penetrating.
The temporary wound channel is another factor we honestly can’t count on with pistols. Because it is known but not measurable, it has become the center of all sorts of marketing smoke and mirrors. For example, Federal Hydra-Shok ammunition was named for the concept of “hydraulic shock;” the idea that tissue not actually touched by the bullet could still be damaged by the “energy dump” or “kinetic energy transfer” of the bullet’s velocity to the surrounding tissue. The “energy dump” was the given reason why bad guys would be “knocked down” by the new hollow-point technology of rounds like the Hydra-Shok. Of course, there is no such thing as “knock-down power” with pistols, because no pistol knocks the shooter down when fired. Newton tells us that for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, the recoil your hand feels when you shoot a pistol is roughly equal to the amount of energy the bullet has as it leaves the muzzle, just compressed into a smaller, denser, much faster projectile. Getting shot by a handgun will not physically knock you down. I’ve been told it feels like being hit by a fastball, followed by a terrible stinging pain coming from your insides. Hydra-Shok is quality ammunition with a long track record in law enforcement and civilian use, but it physically cannot knock the bad guy over like we always see in the movies.
Tissue damage done through hydraulic shock is small even in many rifle calibers. In pistol calibers there is just not enough kinetic energy transferred to surrounding tissue to make any significant difference at all. That leaves us with penetration and permanent wound channel as the two ways pistol calibers consistently damage tissue. If penetration were all that mattered, we would all be carrying full metal jacket rounds like the military does. Of course, penetration is not everything. The military issues those FMJ rounds because under our interpretation of the Hague convention, hollow points are inhumane and contrary to the laws of war. The USA never signed the Hague convention but follows it strictly anyway, while other countries that did sign it have long since abandoned its outdated rules. I suppose the Hague Convention is why you’ll never see the USAF lobbing poison gas bombs from hot air balloons. For those of us who are not stuck in the 19th century, modern technology has provided the hollow point bullet.
A few .45acp Gold Dot jacketed hollow point bullets, two unfired and six that have expanded.
A hollow point bullet fired from a handgun is designed to flatten out as it penetrates through soft tissue, staying in once piece but forming a “mushroom” shape with a wider diameter. This means less penetration than FMJ, but a bigger permanent wound channel. If penetration still meets the FBI’s required 12 inches, you get the best of both ways that a handgun bullet realistically damages tissue. What we want out of our handguns is 12 inches of penetration through soft tissue with the largest permanent wound channel possible. This maximizes our chances of directly damaging something vital.
This is the part where thousands of .45 ACP shooters smugly say, “That’s why I carry a .45, it puts ‘em down with just one shot.” I have seen this assertion many times on our Facebook page. Folks, you must hit something vital with any handgun bullet to quickly stop an assailant. A good friend of mine was in a shootout two years ago and was hit three times with .38 Special Speer Gold Dots before he even began to return fire. He scored two hits on the bad guy with .45 ACP Winchester SXT rounds (the ones that known as “Black Talons” back in the day) and the assailant ran off. The police followed a blood trail for eight hours before finding the bad guy hiding in a closet. Both men survived. My friend was the star witness at the bad guy’s trial, where they sentenced the bad guy to life in prison plus 30 years. The .45 ACP did save the day, but it did not physically stop the assailant. He simply ran away because someone was fighting back and his revolver was empty.
Handguns are not nearly as powerful as the movies, the media, and the firearms industry itself want you to believe. Regardless of your caliber of choice, train often, shoot fast and accurately, and be prepared for a life-threatening fight that continues after you’ve emptied the magazine. When deciding on what ammo to carry, do your own research and don’t believe the hype!"
Probably, in most cases. Aren't there a lot of cases of police failing to take down suspects with every service caliber? There's an infamous one involving .45 ACP with maybe 15 shots.
blog.cheaperthandirt.com...
"I enjoy a good sales pitch. Part of being an American is being oversold on everything. This vacuum picks up the dirt that other vacuums leave behind! This home gym will give you a flat stomach by exercising just 10 minutes a day, plus it folds under your bed for storage! This ammo has so much stopping power that the government tried to ban it from civilian purchase! Yeah, right. When it comes to ammunition selection for personal defense, we need to separate real from hype before making a purchase. If you make a bad purchase on a vacuum or a home gym, you are likely to be a bit embarrassed. Making a bad purchase on defensive ammunition could have dire consequences. Let’s talk about some fundamentals so you’ll be able to make an informed decision.
Regardless of velocity, the bullet crushes the tissue in front of it as it penetrates or tunnels through that tissue. After the infamous “Miami Firefight” of 1986, the FBI set a minimum penetration requirement of 12 inches for their ammunition. This became the industry standard. All bullets penetrate and leave behind a measurable permanent cavity, even the .22 LR. All bullets also create a temporary cavity, although actually measuring it is nearly impossible. Fragmentation is dependent on two factors; bullet design and velocity. Impact velocities above 2,000 feet per second can cause fragmentation in full metal jacket bullets with thin jacketing, such as M193 5.56 NATO. Soft point or hollow point rounds may also fragment at the same velocities.
In rifle rounds, fragmentation accounts for a lot of the bullet’s ability to destroy tissue and stop bad guys in their tracks. Making slower pistol rounds fragment requires specialized bullet designs that fragment very easily. The problem with these rounds, such as the Glaser Safety Slug, is that they fragment immediately without penetrating. They are advertised as being safer to shoot indoors because they won’t penetrate walls and kill innocents on the other side. This is true! However, a round that can’t penetrate two layers of brittle sheetrock isn’t going to devastate a 250-pound man coming at you with a crowbar either. It will break up immediately upon hitting his skin, shower the first few inches of fat and muscle with little specks of lead, and fail to reach his vital organs. This is not what we want. At this time there is no magic pistol round that is safe when you miss, but “knows” when it hits a bad guy and decides that now is the time to penetrate and then fragment. Any round capable of penetrating tissue to FBI minimum standards is also capable of penetrating doors and walls. Fragmentation in pistol rounds falls into just two categories, won’t happen and fragments without penetrating.
The temporary wound channel is another factor we honestly can’t count on with pistols. Because it is known but not measurable, it has become the center of all sorts of marketing smoke and mirrors. For example, Federal Hydra-Shok ammunition was named for the concept of “hydraulic shock;” the idea that tissue not actually touched by the bullet could still be damaged by the “energy dump” or “kinetic energy transfer” of the bullet’s velocity to the surrounding tissue. The “energy dump” was the given reason why bad guys would be “knocked down” by the new hollow-point technology of rounds like the Hydra-Shok. Of course, there is no such thing as “knock-down power” with pistols, because no pistol knocks the shooter down when fired. Newton tells us that for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, the recoil your hand feels when you shoot a pistol is roughly equal to the amount of energy the bullet has as it leaves the muzzle, just compressed into a smaller, denser, much faster projectile. Getting shot by a handgun will not physically knock you down. I’ve been told it feels like being hit by a fastball, followed by a terrible stinging pain coming from your insides. Hydra-Shok is quality ammunition with a long track record in law enforcement and civilian use, but it physically cannot knock the bad guy over like we always see in the movies.
Tissue damage done through hydraulic shock is small even in many rifle calibers. In pistol calibers there is just not enough kinetic energy transferred to surrounding tissue to make any significant difference at all. That leaves us with penetration and permanent wound channel as the two ways pistol calibers consistently damage tissue. If penetration were all that mattered, we would all be carrying full metal jacket rounds like the military does. Of course, penetration is not everything. The military issues those FMJ rounds because under our interpretation of the Hague convention, hollow points are inhumane and contrary to the laws of war. The USA never signed the Hague convention but follows it strictly anyway, while other countries that did sign it have long since abandoned its outdated rules. I suppose the Hague Convention is why you’ll never see the USAF lobbing poison gas bombs from hot air balloons. For those of us who are not stuck in the 19th century, modern technology has provided the hollow point bullet.
A few .45acp Gold Dot jacketed hollow point bullets, two unfired and six that have expanded.
A hollow point bullet fired from a handgun is designed to flatten out as it penetrates through soft tissue, staying in once piece but forming a “mushroom” shape with a wider diameter. This means less penetration than FMJ, but a bigger permanent wound channel. If penetration still meets the FBI’s required 12 inches, you get the best of both ways that a handgun bullet realistically damages tissue. What we want out of our handguns is 12 inches of penetration through soft tissue with the largest permanent wound channel possible. This maximizes our chances of directly damaging something vital.
This is the part where thousands of .45 ACP shooters smugly say, “That’s why I carry a .45, it puts ‘em down with just one shot.” I have seen this assertion many times on our Facebook page. Folks, you must hit something vital with any handgun bullet to quickly stop an assailant. A good friend of mine was in a shootout two years ago and was hit three times with .38 Special Speer Gold Dots before he even began to return fire. He scored two hits on the bad guy with .45 ACP Winchester SXT rounds (the ones that known as “Black Talons” back in the day) and the assailant ran off. The police followed a blood trail for eight hours before finding the bad guy hiding in a closet. Both men survived. My friend was the star witness at the bad guy’s trial, where they sentenced the bad guy to life in prison plus 30 years. The .45 ACP did save the day, but it did not physically stop the assailant. He simply ran away because someone was fighting back and his revolver was empty.
Handguns are not nearly as powerful as the movies, the media, and the firearms industry itself want you to believe. Regardless of your caliber of choice, train often, shoot fast and accurately, and be prepared for a life-threatening fight that continues after you’ve emptied the magazine. When deciding on what ammo to carry, do your own research and don’t believe the hype!"
a reply to: carewemust
Nah, medics are getting better at patching people up, and shooters are getting worse shots.
Half of the gangbangers these days are kids who think that you've got aim assist in real life. They just yank that old trigger as fast as they can without aiming properly, and they can't hit jack diddly.
Nah, medics are getting better at patching people up, and shooters are getting worse shots.
Half of the gangbangers these days are kids who think that you've got aim assist in real life. They just yank that old trigger as fast as they can without aiming properly, and they can't hit jack diddly.
originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Madviking
Dunno man...center mass with a .40 will bring down just about anything on 2 legs
Kids these days think they can aim because they can do a headshot in Fortnite, but when the try it in real life they're rubbish.
How many of them could actually hit center mass?
We're probable seeing a lot of people with flesh wounds to the arms or legs, and people pinged by shrapnel. Rather than center mass hits.
I know a retired Chicago cop, and he has the police report of a shooting where the suspect blew his own head off.
The criminal found the plans for making a 1911 .45 full auto
So he converted one and put a 15 round extended mag in the converted 1911.
What he did not do was build the stock that was needed to fire the 1911 in full auto.
The first round just missed the member of the other gang he fired at
Round 2 went just over the head of his target.
Round 3 4 and 5 went into the air.
Round 6 parted the suspect hair..
Round 7 8 and 9 went through the suspect's face and the gun jammed.
None of his fallow gang members wanted anything to do with 1911s 45s after that.
The criminal found the plans for making a 1911 .45 full auto
So he converted one and put a 15 round extended mag in the converted 1911.
What he did not do was build the stock that was needed to fire the 1911 in full auto.
The first round just missed the member of the other gang he fired at
Round 2 went just over the head of his target.
Round 3 4 and 5 went into the air.
Round 6 parted the suspect hair..
Round 7 8 and 9 went through the suspect's face and the gun jammed.
None of his fallow gang members wanted anything to do with 1911s 45s after that.
edit on 1-7-2021 by ANNED because: (no reason given)
originally posted by: murphy22
a reply to: carewemust
Obviously. Chicago has moved away from the .45 Colt caliber and have become very European.
This could be a good thing or a bad thing. Depending on perspective.
My first question? What has "this guy" been doing wrong, to be an "accidental target" so many times, in "recent years"?... Just minding his own business?
Not buying the story.
This guy was interviewed because bad-luck also followed him to a grocery store, where a crazed woman was running around stabbing people. (He showed the bullet wounds during the "stabbing" interview.)
originally posted by: Homefree
I know a guy who got shot in the mouth.
Knocked half his teeth out and exited the side of his neck.
He lived just fine and now he thinks I am a provider of free beer.
The amount of medical care these "shot but survived" victims require over many years is staggering in cost.
originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: carewemust
I think it may be that Chicago hoodlums are piss poor shots.
Ever see them hold their gun sideways and shoot it?
Or wailing their arm in an arc while firing?
I can believe that. In some cases, I'm sure its because they are so "high" they can't see or think properly. That's one thing that kept my wife and I from being shot a few years ago in Chicago.
originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: carewemust
This is the biggest reason to fear being shot in some of the cities like Chicago, Detroit, NYC and Baltimore. It's not because some gangbanger is actually shooting AT you, it's because you are far more likely to be hit by stray, wild, gunfire.
You're 100% spot-on. Tonight, a 9 year-old girl is fighting for her life. Riding in the back-seat, and shot in the head, as her mom drove through cross-fire in Chicago.
Story: wgntv.com...
originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
More people are killed by .22 cal bullets than any other. So, I don't think it has anything to do with firearms becoming more anemic. More to do with the person pulling the trigger.
A 9mm round is plenty deadly.
The other factor which I think is relevant here is the type of ammo most of these street thugs use. Many of them are using FMJ ball ammo, some of it even steel. The reason for this is because it's cheap, and they don't know any better (thankfully). Taking a round from an FMJ bullet to an extremity is likely a through and through wound. As long as it doesn't hit an artery or bone, the victim can usually walk away. Even a center mass torso shot isn't necessarily deadly unless a vital organ is struck.
Hollow point ammunition on the other hand is a completely different story! The wound cavity with HP ammo is massive, and the fragmenting HP rounds are even worse. A person with a center-mass hit from a hollow point bullet is not walking away.
In 'da hood' people's backsides are a big target. You'd be surprised on how many people get shot in the butt. A butt-shot with FMJ ammo is a big deal, but it's not necessarily deadly. A butt-shot with HP ammo is almost always fatal if the victim doesn't receive immediate emergency medical care. Blood loss from a butt-shot is huge.
Quoted your post, because its entire content was 100% new information for me, and should be seen by many more new visitors to this thread.
Thank-you!!!
originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: carewemust
This is why we carry concealed. Detroit. Every. Day. Even in the suburbs.....
In the part of Michigan where I'm from, a lady accidentally killed herself, while stuffing her gun in a bra that was designed for "concealed carry".
BE CAREFUL!
originally posted by: carewemust
originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: carewemust
This is the biggest reason to fear being shot in some of the cities like Chicago, Detroit, NYC and Baltimore. It's not because some gangbanger is actually shooting AT you, it's because you are far more likely to be hit by stray, wild, gunfire.
You're 100% spot-on. Tonight, a 9 year-old girl is fighting for her life. Riding in the back-seat, and shot in the head, as her mom drove through cross-fire in Chicago.
Story: wgntv.com...
And just after the WGN 9oclock news reported the 9 year old girl being shot, another bulletin breaks in, reporting a little baby being shot, and listed in "critical" condition.
Story here: wgntv.com...
a reply to: carewemust
Oh goodness...you are spot on.
I also stabbed myself in the butt sitting on scizzors!
Oh goodness...you are spot on.
I also stabbed myself in the butt sitting on scizzors!
originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: carewemust
Oh goodness...you are spot on.
July 6, 2021
July 4th Weekend: 400 Shootings / 150 Deaths nationwide.
Source: www.foxnews.com...
That is more of the shootings-to-death ratio one would expect.
a reply to: carewemust
Crazy, huh? 92 shootings in Chicago over July 4th.
We carry legal and look what us good guys are up against!
Crazy, huh? 92 shootings in Chicago over July 4th.
We carry legal and look what us good guys are up against!
originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: carewemust
Crazy, huh? 92 shootings in Chicago over July 4th.
We carry legal and look what us good guys are up against!
The total was revised upward to 101 shootings within the city limits!
Mayor Lightfoot announced today that a $1 Million dollar REWARD fund has been set up to pay for "tips" that lead to illegal guns.
abc7chicago.com...
Hopefully the "tipper's" name won't be shared with the illegal gun owner.
She should try this with illegal aliens!
edit on 7/15/2021 by carewemust because: (no reason given)
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