Anti-mask wearers are smarter than mask wearers, concludes MIT study.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Your own response is indicative that you do not believe people are being harmed, or would you rather I believe you simply do not care about people being harmed? As it is, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

OK, what part of my response made you think that?

I have seen plenty of posts on this site from people who either do not understand or simply do not care about these requirements being harmful to others. Can you not talk to them? How is that when you are talking to me?

As I said before, I haven't seen people harming other people on this thread, but you said that you "consider face masks as such a mark of unintelligence".

I see much illogic in your answers thus far to my posts. Perhaps you are a bit conflicted?

No, maybe I'm not wording things correctly or maybe you read in my posts what you want to read instead of what I wrote.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Asthma is not always a mark of physically decreased lung function, although it can be. It can also be a failure in the feedback loop that controls breathing, or a combination of the two. In my case, hard breathing beyond a very low threshold does me absolutely no good; I can control my breathing and rest just as fast and just as efficiently. However, my instinctive (subconscious) response to exertion is heavy breathing. The feedback loop is still operational, but the physical damage has rendered it useless. Blood cannot saturate beyond 98-99%, and flow must be sufficient at experienced levels to deliver enough blood to where it is needed for continual exertion.

When I was 18 years old I had to go to the physical exams to see if I was fit for military service (at the time it was still mandatory), and my lung capacity was around 50% of what it should be. Contrary to what happens in COPD, they react to bronchodilators, that I have been using for almost all my life when I cannot breath. The last time I had to go to the hospital with an asthma attack the bronchodilator (Salbutamol) wasn't working as it should (a double dose should last at least 3 hours, it didn't last 30 minutes), and when I got to the hospital the doctor scolded me because I waited too long and was already starting to have cyanosis.

Also, are you saying there is absolutely no discomfort to you wearing a face mask?

No. Specially in hot and humid weather they are uncomfortable to wear, or, like on last Friday, when I'm on a 6 kilometres walk and get hot from the exercise. If there's no one at less than 2 metres from me (that's what the law says) I take off the mask.

Lessened cognitive ability is hard for one to detect in oneself, since one must use their cognitive functions in order to assess their cognitive functions.

My work is either programming and, in the last year, helping my boss interpret the constant legislation changes and apply for the several government support programs in our clients' name. I think I (or my boss) would notice a decrease in cognitive abilities.
The one thing that clearly reduces my cognitive capabilities is tiredness, as seen several times on ATS in the posts I make at the end of the day.

Irritability is a symptom which is also not readily apparent to the one experiencing it.

It is to me, as getting irritated (among other things) makes my asthma worse, so I learned since I was a small child not to get irritated, and for that I need to identify a change in irritability fast.

My wife has Type II diabetes; she has to take into account different considerations than either of us.

I also have type II diabetes.

Laws must allow for these physical considerations based on individual conditions.

In Portugal they do.

How would you feel if you were somehow required by law to undertake actions which you knew would lead to a severe asthma attack? That is how I feel whenever people start demanding that others wear masks. I hope you can understand that.

I don't have any problem understanding that, I understood the first time you talked about it, my only problem was the generalization of considering all mask wearers as "stupid" or "unintelligent".

a reply to: EvilAxis

Mask use isn't new. Their specific utility against Covid-19 was untested a year ago, but there's been a lot of research in the meantime, and the consensus is strong.

Mask use by the general public to contain viral spread certainly is new. It has never been tried with such widespread use. And the simple fact is, despite what "scientism" says, that this disease is still spreading over a year later. Something's not working.

Not true. Many routinely work for much longer than that.

The cheetah is the fastest land animal. So?

Try to keep up. I never said surgeons only work for two hours at a time. I said they use face masks for stretches that rarely exceed two hours. Their masks are changed between surgeries as well as during a surgery if it runs for very long. That's because a surgical mask is, as has been pointed out, pretty much useless once it becomes soaked with moisture from respiration and/or perspiration. Surgeons also take a break between surgeries, not just to get fresh air, but to allow them to refocus their concentration on the next patient.

I might, if it was true.

The capital of North Dakota is Bismark.

Again, you are trying to argue your interpretation of something I never said. Clinical studies have been conducted using face masks to determine efficacy toward known pathogens. This is done using a petri dish. A known pathogen is expelled form what is essentially an "artificial mouth" into a petri dish, and the resulting culture is then compared. This method uses bacterial pathogens because viral pathogens do not multiply in a petri dish. A virus requires a host cell to replicate itself; bacteria do not.

As for this study, your link states the following:

The scientists conducted a test using a device that contained a sodium chloride solution and emitted aerosol particles of 100 nanometers. SARS-CoV-2 is about 120 nanometers in diameter. A burst of aerosols was triggered, and particle concentration was measured before and after the mask.

Sodium chloride is an easily water soluble molecule which is crystalline in structure unless dissolved. Therefore, any particles approaching 100 nm in size are not sodium chloride; they are an aqueous solution of sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid in water. A droplet will be attracted to any porous surface it comes into contact with due to the surface tension of the water, meaning it will adhere to a mask surface.

A virus is not a salt, and does not therefore dissolve in water. The dynamics of motion will therefore be quite different. My point stands: these studies have not verified use against a particle the same size and composition of a virus.

No, in science that would be called correlation. It's only considered causal when other possible causes are eliminated (like vaccines, etc.) Your anecdotal 'maybe 1 in 20 people wearing masks' and 'most businesses have dropped or are dropping the requirement' don't amount to robust scientific data anyway.

It is causal in that one event preceded the other. In other words, the lack of mask use preceded the drop in confirmed cases. Therefore the face mask usage could be responsible for the drop in confirmed cases, but the drop in confirmed cases can not be responsible for the drop in face mask usage.

You are confusing causal with causality. They are two related but distinctly different concepts.

Correlation does not prove causality, but correlation must be causal in nature.

I can see why ArMaP is struggling to follow your logic there. There doesn't seem to be any.

If A then B. A is true... therefore B is true.

Try not to hurt yourself understanding that.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ArMaP

As I said, if you can't understand my position already, you never will. I cannot fathom any way to make it clearer.

my lung capacity was around 50%

That's fair enough. It sounds like your issue is primarily physical rather than neural. I have no issue with that; it is what it is. I do hope it is now under control.

No. Specially in hot and humid weather they are uncomfortable to wear, or, like on last Friday, when I'm on a 6 kilometres walk and get hot from the exercise. If there's no one at less than 2 metres from me (that's what the law says) I take off the mask.

Discomfort was one of the symptoms I specified.

My work is either programming and, in the last year, helping my boss interpret the constant legislation changes and apply for the several government support programs in our clients' name. I think I (or my boss) would notice a decrease in cognitive abilities.

Maybe, maybe not. Is he also wearing a mask?

The one thing that clearly reduces my cognitive capabilities is tiredness, as seen several times on ATS in the posts I make at the end of the day.

And I would suggest that perhaps the degree of mental tiredness is exasperated by the continued mask use. As you say, they are hot and uncomfortable.

I am an engineer... I spend all day at times working with equations that are often unsolvable by any method except numeration. I have discovered that excessive heat or discomfort during the day will increase my mental tiredness... which is the same as a decrease in cognitive ability.

In Portugal they do.

In the USA the rules (these are not really laws; they have not been passed by any legislative body) make exceptions as well, but they are not being followed. Instead, we have people who are so adamant about face mask use that they will discriminate, threaten, and even physically attack someone for not wearing a mask... despite them often wearing theirs under their chin. That is the problem, and why I consider face mask use a barometer of intelligence.

I don't have any problem understanding that, I understood the first time you talked about it, my only problem was the generalization of considering all mask wearers as "stupid" or "unintelligent".

It is a generalization, and I do recognize there are exceptions. However...

if I see a dog snarling and growling at me with its head lowered, I am going to assume this dog intends to attack me. That's a generalization as well, but it is likely a true statement for almost every dog I come into contact with displaying that behavior. As such, I respond to the dog based on that generalization, because experience has shown me that the generalization is usually true.

If I see someone wearing a mask, yes, I mentality deduct several IQ points from my assessment of them. Why? Because experience has shown me that the more someone wears a mask, the greater the likelihood that they are simply following blindly whatever TPTB tell them to do. Taking action which might be harmful to one because one believes flawed "scientism" despite a lack of evidence supporting it is, in my opinion, a sign of a reduced intelligence.

Now, whether that is the result of the face mask or not I have no idea... but I do know that the generalization has proved itself fairly accurate in my experience so far.

What I am wondering now is, why is my opinion of someone else so crucial to people? I am obviously not important enough to warrant things like health care, so why am I important enough that anyone cares about my opinion of them?

TheRedneck

I question the Scientific Rigour applied by MIT as many people do not use Twitter and ethnography has a somewhat "patchy" provenance.

I must be one of the "Thickos" with a higher degree in Aerospace Engineering who also happens to use a mask when in the presence of people that are unmasked, and this is despite having had both anti-viral jabs. I do this not for my own protection but to ensure that people around me are less at risk from infection as a result of me breathing out viral particulates.

For me, this is not a hardship but, I fully understand those unable to wear a mask due to pre-existing pulmonary conditions. I do not vilify or ostracise those that refuse to wear a mask based on a particular belief-system, that is a precious freedom and in this day and age then freedoms must be protected.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
As I said, if you can't understand my position already, you never will. I cannot fathom any way to make it clearer.

I said I understand it.

That's fair enough. It sounds like your issue is primarily physical rather than neural. I have no issue with that; it is what it is. I do hope it is now under control.

It is, thanks. It got better when I lost weight.

Discomfort was one of the symptoms I specified.

Wearing a hot piece of humid cloth on your face is a discomfort, independently from any problem with O2 entering or CO2 exiting the lungs. My biggest problem with the masks is that they stop the part of the skin that is covered from "breathing" as normally, similar to when we have a band-aid on a finger and the skin doesn't "breath".

Maybe, maybe not. Is he also wearing a mask?

No, she isn't. At first she was paranoid with CoViD-19, but as she a smoker and she had to keep on taking of the mask and putting it on again she soon stopped wearing on the office.

And I would suggest that perhaps the degree of mental tiredness is exasperated by the continued mask use. As you say, they are hot and uncomfortable.

No, on days I wear the mask for less time and work more I get more tired than on the days I wear the mask the whole day but work less.

I am an engineer... I spend all day at times working with equations that are often unsolvable by any method except numeration. I have discovered that excessive heat or discomfort during the day will increase my mental tiredness... which is the same as a decrease in cognitive ability.

Excessive heat or humidity affects me (specially because they reduce the amount of oxygen available in the air), but if the temperature or humidity goes down I recover

In the USA the rules (these are not really laws; they have not been passed by any legislative body) make exceptions as well, but they are not being followed. Instead, we have people who are so adamant about face mask use that they will discriminate, threaten, and even physically attack someone for not wearing a mask... despite them often wearing theirs under their chin. That is the problem, and why I consider face mask use a barometer of intelligence.

Maybe that applies where you live, but different locations have different circumstances.

What I am wondering now is, why is my opinion of someone else so crucial to people?

It is?

Fake news

originally posted by: TheRedneck

And the simple fact is, despite what "scientism" says, that this disease is still spreading over a year later. Something's not working.

Science (not scientism), shows that mask wearing is effective at reducing infections.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

The cheetah is the fastest land animal. So?

The capital of North Dakota is Bismark.

Random non sequiturs when your errors are pointed out don't help your argument.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

I never said surgeons only work for two hours at a time. I said they use face masks for stretches that rarely exceed two hours.

You said, "surgeons rarely wear a mask more than two hours at a time, as longer use can and has led to reports of a difficulty in concentration", which I pointed out, is nonsense. No scientific studies have claimed to show that surgeons' concentration or performance is impaired by prolonged mask wearing.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

Clinical studies have been conducted using face masks to determine efficacy toward known pathogens. This is done using a petri dish. A known pathogen is expelled form what is essentially an "artificial mouth" into a petri dish, and the resulting culture is then compared. This method uses bacterial pathogens because viral pathogens do not multiply in a petri dish.

That's only one of many methodologies. There have been numerous studies using different protocols, many testing specifically for viral pathogens, many with human participants, and many epidemiological (real world) studies.

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus University of California

originally posted by: TheRedneck

It is causal in that one event preceded the other.

Absolutely not. It's important to be clear about this, as it's key to scientific understanding. A single event preceding another in isolation is coincidence, until proven otherwise. A pattern (e.g. people not wearing masks) preceding another pattern (e.g. a drop in confirmed cases) is correlation only, until proven otherwise. Further investigation would be required to determine whether it was coincidental, the result of other factors influencing both patterns or directly causal.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

You are confusing causal with causality. They are two related but distinctly different concepts.

Correlation does not prove causality, but correlation must be causal in nature.

Again - absolutely not. Whether you call it a cause, causation, causality or a causal relationship - correlation does not mean it exists. Correlation Does Not Imply Causation. OK, it's Wikipedia, but this is so basic I don't know where else to point you.

A strong correlation may suggest it's worth investigating if there is a causal relationship, but is no guarantee that there is one.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

If A then B. A is true... therefore B is true.

Try not to hurt yourself understanding that.

OK, I'll give it another go.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

You said that mask use was in order to prevent infected individuals from spreading the disease. You are obviously a proponent of all people wearing a mask whenever possible. Therefore, the logical conclusion was that you consider all people as infected.

So...
If (A) mask use, then (B) individuals are prevented from spreading disease.
If A is true... therefore B is true. I agree with the conclusion, but not the logic.

Then you said, therefore (C) 'you consider all people as infected'.
I can't for the life of me how you arrive at that.

a reply to: keithisco1

I do not vilify or ostracise those that refuse to wear a mask

Then you are the exception to my experiences. Thank you.

There are days when I absolutely love to be proven wrong.

TheRedneck

a reply to: ArMaP

Maybe that applies where you live, but different locations have different circumstances.

Of course they do. Heck, I get the impression that if I lived in New York or Michigan, I would have been put in front of a firing squad already.

That is actually my point. Your opinion is based on an narrow outlook, specific only to your location and experiences. My experiences have been quite different; therefore my opinion is colored by those experiences.

TheRedneck

a reply to: EvilAxis

Science (not scientism), shows that mask wearing is effective at reducing infections.

Science shows that mask wearing is effective at reducing bacterial infections. Scientism tries to extend that to viral infections.

They are also apparently effective at trapping salt water aerosols. I'll grant that much.

Random non sequiturs when your errors are pointed out don't help your argument.

Changing the context of the argument to suit your agenda doesn't help yours. That's what I was attempting to point out... in vain, apparently.

You said, "surgeons rarely wear a mask more than two hours at a time, as longer use can and has led to reports of a difficulty in concentration", which I pointed out, is nonsense. No scientific studies have claimed to show that surgeons' concentration or performance is impaired by prolonged mask wearing.

There are no studies because there is no need. Why study something that doesn't happen?

Some surgeons have reported a lack of concentration after extended mask use without a break, which is why they take breaks. There is no problem with taking a break, since it also helps the surgeon concentrate on their next case. It's pretty much accepted in a medical setting that mask use is limited to when one is actually needed (as in an actual operation or when dealing with an actual deadly pathogen).

You know, I just realized something: I don't think there is a single study that concludes that using the flat end of a clawhammer to drive a nail is more efficient than using the claw end. Imagine that! According to your logic, I've been using the wrong end! It's science! Yay!

That's only one of many methodologies. There have been numerous studies using different protocols, many testing specifically for viral pathogens, many with human participants, and many epidemiological (real world) studies.

OK, I'll bite: what methodology is used to determine the concentration of viral particles? We can barely detect the Chinese virus... the tests are based on spike protein or antibody detection, which is assumed to be indicative of a full virus. Then only place I know of where an actual virus is being detected directly is in a few lab settings where they are trying to determine ways to neutralize it.


I'm not going to argue terminology with a layman... you are incorrect and because of that you misunderstood my statement.

OK, I'll give it another go.

And another miss.

You stated (paraphrasing; I am not going to spend time looking up posts so I can quote) that people needed to wear masks to prevent infecting others. Infection of others is only possible if one is infected themselves. You then implied several times that everyone should wear a mask. Since wearing a mask is needed to prevent infection of others by someone who is infected, and you believe that everyone should wear a mask, then it follows that you consider everyone to be infected.

Your explanation that many infected people are asymptomatic and therefore do not know if they are infected only serves to underscore this conclusion. You therefore apparently believe that everyone else is likely infected, even if they do not show symptoms.

Now, if you believe that everyone is infected (or even if you believe the majority of people are infected), then there is no need to wear a face mask, since there is no one to prevent from being infected. If you believe that only a small number of people are infected, then it follows that the proper solution would be to get them and them alone to wear masks.

The only other possibilities I can fathom are that you are either a germophobe trying to force your own fears onto the rest of the planet, or you simply are unable to logically understand your own position... and that takes us back to my original statement concerning the intelligence of those advocating for mask use.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
That is actually my point. Your opinion is based on an narrow outlook, specific only to your location and experiences. My experiences have been quite different; therefore my opinion is colored by those experiences.

And precisely because my opinion is based on my personal knowledge of the local circumstances I do not make generalisations and I point that fact to people when I see them doing it.

Just that.

a reply to: ArMaP

And precisely because my opinion is based on my personal knowledge of the local circumstances I do not make generalisations

Isn't suggesting that everyone should wear a mask a generalization too?

TheRedneck

All I have to say about it is that I have been wearing two masks every single time I was in public and consciously keeping my distance from others where possible since this started and I have not had the virus. That's good enough for me and I don't care what people think of my IQ. I like being alive and not being in the hospital and not passing deadly viruses to elderly family members. I'm scared of potentially slowly suffocating to death so I guess that makes me an idiot.

Stop the truth they cannot. Victorious shall we be. Stop not the truth sharing.

a reply to: IndieA
Hello, would you plz share the link of the original website where this PDF file is available for download?

As for wearing a mask, I prefer not to. It's not needed. Build your antibodies like a human is supposed to and you'll be okay.

I've been healthy since all this started and wore it only when demanded and seldomly as much as possible.

originally posted by: wyldwylly

As for wearing a mask, I prefer not to. It's not needed. Build your antibodies like a human is supposed to and you'll be okay.

I've been healthy since all this started and wore it only when demanded and seldomly as much as possible.

However healthy you may be, you can't build antibodies to a virus you've not contracted (except by vaccination). Being healthy gives you a better chance of shrugging it off, but no guarantee. I know a very healthy young man who died of it during our first lockdown. While your body creates antibodies to the virus you are shedding, so if you don't wear a mask you're doing nothing to avoid spreading it to others, many of whom may not be blessed with good health.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

Science shows that mask wearing is effective at reducing bacterial infections. Scientism tries to extend that to viral infections.

You ignored the epidemiological studies which specifically show masks reducing viral infections. And the clinical studies.

Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks Nature, 2020

originally posted by: TheRedneck

They are also apparently effective at trapping salt water aerosols. I'll grant that much.

If they trap any aerosols, they must trap viral particles within the aerosols. Nobody claims masks prevent all viral emissions. Exposure to a reduced viral load is associated with reduced chance of contracting Covid and reduced severity of symptoms.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

Some surgeons have reported a lack of concentration after extended mask use without a break, which is why they take breaks.

Yet you conspicuously fail to cite any surgeons attributing extended mask wearing to lack of concentration. As I said, many (including dentists) routinely wear them for much longer without harm to themselves or their patients.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

I'm not going to argue terminology with a layman... you are incorrect and because of that you misunderstood my statement.

Implying you're a scientist and claiming "correlation must be causal in nature" is an interesting juxtaposition.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

You stated (paraphrasing; I am not going to spend time looking up posts so I can quote) that people needed to wear masks to prevent infecting others. Infection of others is only possible if one is infected themselves.

Agreed.

originally posted by: TheRedneck

You then implied several times that everyone should wear a mask.

You were unable to quote me saying that because, as I showed you (with quotation), that has never been my stance.

Your argument beyond this point seems garbled.

If somebody believed everyone was infected - sure, they would see no point in anyone wearing masks. But nobody believes that.

Many infectious diseases (including Covid-19) can be spread before symptoms are apparent, and also by asymptomatic carriers. So it's safest for everyone to take what sensible precautions they can if they don't wish to inadvertently spread it. Rocket science?

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Isn't suggesting that everyone should wear a mask a generalization too?

It's based on a generalization but it's a suggestion.

a reply to: ArMaP


Question - If a State Lifts it's Illegal Mask Mandate , then Why would anyone in that State STILL Wear a Mask in Public ?

Answer - Because the State and MSM have Conditioned them to Continue to FEAR being Exposed to Covid-19 .


We were ALL PLayed like a Violin , but at Least SOME of US have Seen Through the Propaganda............