Where do your rights come from?

a reply to: CitizenZero

What about slaves of days gone by that had kids who were also slaves from birth and property of there masters?

Where were there "God-given freedoms" that they were born with?

Keeping in mind there is more slavery in this day of age than there ever was in the past.

originally posted by: Stevenmonet
a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

Great points and questions like your are what make this such an interesting topic and is obvious fodder forn countless hours of metaphysical discussion and theorizing all of which I enjoy and find great value in. Many other members have expressed similar thoughts/ideas and i
would be remiss if I didn't point that out.

Ok so by now hopefully you know my goals for data and have seen a few of my quick breakdowns just let me know if I'm way off here as I try and summarize your beliefs:

You are in the born with rights camp and likely from a creator, but the nature of creation in question as far as random or organized may be your hang up.

Would it be fair to say until you are convinced of the organized nature of creation that you at least feel some form of universal order gave rise to you and therefore your birthright?

If so we have half our data set, but if not please clarify.

You make distinction between rights and laws. In my limited experience this means you see laws as being from men/government/society, and rights as being from the possible chance roll of dice on a universal scale that was somehow imparted to you upon birth.

So basically I'm left with one question.

In your opinion does the society/government of which you are currently a member pass laws that you feel encroach upon your rights, or do you feel that any law the government passes could not possibly constrain that which only comes from the chance toss of dice on a universal scale Into which you were born and exists only of aknowledged?

The later more or less. I'm not sure this will answer those questions, but here it goes.

If I can do something, if I am capable of an action of some sort, and I have enough intelligence to understand that any action I am capable of will have a reaction of some kind, then I must accept the consequences of that action. Regardless of the actions or corresponding reactions, I can decide to act or not act, therefore I am responsible for my own actions and the effect it has on reality.

Do laws influence my decision to act or not? Certainly, but laws have no power over me until they arrest me, put me in jail and execute me, a possible reaction to consider if my actions carry a legal penalty. So laws do "encroach" when it limits my ability to make decisions.

So am I born with any rights? If you call the ability to know what I am capable of doing, understanding the consequences of my actions, and be able to make a decision to act or not a "right", then yes, but it developed since birth, not because of being born. My ability to decide how I will act given what I am capable of doing is what I consider my "birthright". Is my existence due to some random set of circumstances (a roll of the dice) or for a purpose by some kind of intelligent design? I can't say for certain, I am therefore I think (I think).

Given your study thus far, you must realize this is far more than a yes or no, black or white, binary type issue. But boiling things down can be useful.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

The OP is coming from a Christian viewpoint, and yet has pigeonholed us into either collectivism or anarchism, while Christianity is politically passive.

As for me, I choose my battles.

The problem is no matter how good the fundamental foundation of a religion is humans will corrupt it to their own will and desires. I for one feel we need that fundamental foundation and/or the philosophy of someone like Kant to give us that moral compass as we seem to drift off the line of morality quite easily. This doesn't mean that humans do not constantly corrupt religion to fit their own agendas and so we see some really horrendous things happen in the name of religion, but when we do not have any fundamental moral foundation to fall back on the # gets real bad real quick.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: CitizenZero

What about salves of days gone by that had kids who were also slaves from birth and property of there masters?

Where were there "God-given freedoms" that they were are born with?

Keeping in mind there is more slavery in this day of age than there ever was in the past.

If you don’t believe they have freedoms when they were born, why do you care if they were slaves or not?

Their freedoms were denied by men. In each case a slaver makes others slaves. He does this by enslaving them.

a reply to: CitizenZero

Its not about belief its about the fact of the matter.

As to my believes, im on the fence.

There is no such thing as true freedom CitizenZero, there is always a cost, and price to be had, from your first breath until the last.

Answer the question through, where is a slaves babies god given anything never mind right of freedom?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: CitizenZero

Its not about belief its about the fact of the matter.

As to my believes, im on the fence.

There is no such thing as true freedom CitizenZero, there is always a cost, and price to be had ,from your first breath until the last.

Answer the question through, where is a slaves babies god given anything never mind freedom?

We’re not born with chains. That’s the fact of the matter.

Like I said, the slave-baby’s freedoms were stolen, denied and rendered useless by the slaver.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

I'm not to be content or inactive when confronted by evil. Yes the bible has placed some value on finding peace in troubling times by seeking our shelter in the lord, but the idea that to be christ like one must remain in a state of continual peaceful contentment is far from biblical in my opinion.

Revisit christ kicking the money changers out of the temple then compare that image of christ in that moment to that which you contend is christian.

If I am too be peacful and still in all situations, why would jesus tell me he did not come to bring peace but to set father against son and mother against daughter.

Why would he commend those who would follow him to cast off and sell their cloak for a sword?

Why would he caution us to be as peacful as a dove and as cunning as a serpent if we are to be peacful only.

This is top of my head no basic instructions before leaving earth in front of me, but I would be more than willing to expound uppon this topic further if you feel it provides value to the conversation or might lead to a clear data set.

On the topic of clean data sets for my hypothesis which is after all the topic of this thread you commented on:

Where do you feel your rights come from?

Do you feel your current form of government/society deserves/should have more oversight/control over your daily activities, or would you say your current form of government/society should have/deserves less control/oversight over your daily activities than it currently does?

I'm here primarily to collect clean data sets that either support or disprove my hypothesis, but I can see the value in further discussion of the biblical foundation for your belief that: my god, and .y religion command that I be at peace with happy and content with my existence.

We my bible tells me we were born into sinful flesh as a result of original sin and the punishment for all sin is death, but that by the sacrifice of jesus "god in man perfect without sin or blemish" my sins are forgiven and by gods grace alone will could I ever hope to receive eternal life instead of the just rewards for sin under gods law which is death eternal.

As sin imperfect sinful creature my faith in christ is dead without actions. Mostly those actions on .y part are focused internally, and involve confronting my own sinful nature while striving to ever wall oser with christ.

This a work of continual perfecting that will never be complete therfeore I am never to be content with the nature or state of my existence.

I am called to continually struggle against the principalities that rule over my actions not the flesh of this world, but a Christian's struggle and the lords perfecting work in us will never be complete until we are fully redeemed at the throne of judgement.

At least that is how I read it. My bible that is.

a reply to: CitizenZero

Might not be born with chains but geography and social circumstance generally dictate ones place and station in life.

Can we change such, aye, but its a hell of a game of spin the bottle to play, with not many winners.

Some poor 10 year old wean, in some 3rd world African hell hole, that needs to walk 20 miles each way, each day, to gain access to a clean water source, is hardly lightly to become the next Tesla or Einstein now are they?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Sookiechacha

The OP is coming from a Christian viewpoint, and yet has pigeonholed us into either collectivism or anarchism, while Christianity is politically passive.

As for me, I choose my battles.

The problem is no matter how good the fundamental foundation of a religion is humans will corrupt it to their own will and desires. I for one feel we need that fundamental foundation and/or the philosophy of someone like Kant to give us that moral compass as we seem to drift off the line of morality quite easily. This doesn't mean that humans do not constantly corrupt religion to fit their own agendas and so we see some really horrendous things happen in the name of religion, but when we do not have any fundamental moral foundation to fall back on the # gets real bad real quick.

That "moral foundation" comes from a social agreement, even if that social agreement is called religion and claims to come from "God Almighty".

The fact is, "God almighty" created us hungry and vulnerable, and only the most vicious among us survive, historically. Humanity, as a collective whole, has not conquered hunger and vulnerability. As a matter of fact, the rich and power exploit hunger and vulnerability to maintain said wealth and power.

The meek have not inherited the earth, yet. Historically, the meek are, well "history", and the rich and powerful rule the meek and have, thus far, inherited the earth.

This is the "moral foundation" of the society that we live in today.

originally posted by: andy06shake

So which one is it, freewill or predestination?

Because ones not exactly synonymous with the other.

And apparently Gods got a infallible plan.

IDK I'm not really religious....lol

Its like God knows all, knows everything you are going to do before you do it, but you for some reason still have a choice. I'm not sure how that works either.

Maybe it is more complex than just freewill or predestination... How about God knows all paths you can take in an infinite number of possible predestination, knows everything you could possibly choose every second of your life as you choose your path yourself....

That seems more fitting if I was a religious person.

a reply to: Xtrozero

I think you called it with "Maybe it is more complex than just freewill or predestination" part anyroad.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

That is taken out of context.

Jesus did not teach that it was good to suffer; He taught that the trials of life shall pass if we persevere.

As for the Serenity Prayer (which is one of my favorite religious sayings btw), you are taking one line and ignoring the rest. "Courage (tenacity in some versions) to change those things I can." It does not say we are to wallow in acceptance of all things.

Remember, Jesus kicked the bankers out of His temple.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Xtrozero

Then would it be fair to say that in your opinion the word god or creator could just as easily be described as a universal law or force?

In other words would it be fair to say that according to you your rights are inalienable from due to the nature of the univers or how it is ordered.

If that is a fair approximation of your position, we are half way to a clean data set.

Do you feel your current form of government/society should have/is waranted more control/oversight over your daily activities than it currently does, or would you say that your current form of government/society should have/is warranted less control/oversight over your daily activities than it currently does?

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: CitizenZero

Might not be born with chains but geography and social circumstance generally dictate ones place and station in life.

Can we change such, aye, but its a hell of a game of spin the bottle to play, with not many winners.

Some poor 10 year old wean, in some 3rd world African hell hole, that needs to walk 20 miles each way, each day, to gain access to a clean water source, is hardly lightly to become the next Tesla or Einstein now are they?

I’m not sure what that has to do with freedom, slavery or rights, but yes that sounds about right.

a reply to: CitizenZero
I think it means that the idea of god given rights is just a pipe-dream that doesn't actually pan out in the real world.

a reply to: andy06shake

What about salves of days gone by that had kids who were also slaves from birth and property of there masters?

Where were there "God-given freedoms" that they were born with?

They were taken by men.

That's the entire difference between slave and non-slave. Slaves do not have (are denied) inherent birthrights. If one is denied their rights, that makes them a slave by definition.

Oh, and just to be clear... slavery is wrong.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: TheRedneck

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

This is not in the Bible, but it is fairly representative of Christianity today.

You may want to visit Matthew chapter 5 verse 5.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Jesus kicked the bankers out of His temple.

They weren't bankers. They were marketers selling animals that people could sacrifice to atone for their sins. The worse the sin, the more expensive the animal, or bird...

Jesus was about confessing one's sin, not buying forgiveness.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church continued the "selling forgiveness" thing...and still accepts "donations" from sinners today. The practice of bribery has not been driven out of our governments. Not one of them. None of them.

originally posted by: Stevenmonet

originally posted by: Nyiah

originally posted by: Stevenmonet
Simple question right?

Your answer is the basis of my simple hypothesis.

I believe that if your answer is your god/creator you lean towards the right libertarian/conservative.

Thanks for telling me what to think about where my rights come from, but I hate to burst your smug bubble here. How about not painting with such a wide-ass brush?

Edit: To answer, so there isn't some tut-tutter rolling through, your rights are an agreed upon social contract/rules to abide by in the context of communal existence with others. Gods don't have # to do with that.

My intention was not to tell anyone what to think about where their rights come from, but how a person answers that question for themselves has helped .e to form a working hypothesis I wished to test.

Painting with a wide brush can be necessary when trying to understand the principal factors/ideas that form our shared reality.

I can relate with what you have shared, and I find your contribution to the discussion to be a valuable opportunity for me to attempt to more clearly explaine my intentions if nothing else.

If as you say gods have nothing to do with rights that are as you put it an agreed upon social contract/rules to abide by in the context of communal existence with others.

Then my hypothesis states you would tend towards the political left. As i define as somone who feels their government/society deserves/needs more control/oversight over their daily activities.

Do you feel this fairly describes you, or do you feel your government/society should have/deserves less oversight/control over your daily acivities?

Not in the slightest, which my last post should have been easy enough to discern from -- I'm Libertarian. Again with the wide brushes.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: CitizenZero
I think it means that the idea of god given rights is just a pipe-dream that doesn't actually pan out in the real world.

No one has a right to an easy and comfortable upbringing. That’s a pipe-dream.