Philadelphia experiment possibility?

Im not sure where this is most appropriately placed but this forum seemed to be the most likely and it will apply to the Philadelphia experiment among possible other things. Also please take not i make several leaps of thought here and i am not stating this as factual opinion im more or less taking a few scientific theories as i know them and posing a what if possibility.

I have been doing a little thinking and a little reading lately about some information that was given to me from a retired military officer. This individual was at the time talking about technology that was in the government hands and it was being reverse engineered for the past 60 years. Generally statements of that nature are quickly dismissed in my head as BS however for some reason some of what this individual said intrigued me. I will not speculate as to the origins of this technology but as i said it was being reverse engineered so the US did not initially build it. Anyway this gentleman told me of a device that was capable of transportation of huge distances in a blink of an eye. This device was capable of doing so by moving two points in space closer together rather then actually traveling between the two points it literally brought the two points to the same place. Kinda like bringing Moscow to Washington and bending what was between the two points. At first this was a bit hard to fathom or even understand for that matter. However after thinking about it i finally grasped the idea and it seemed oddly enough it sounded strangely familiar.

Now before anyone screams BS hear me out on this, the device sounded familiar from two different places the first being Bob Lazar, the second being some theories based upon Einstein's theories. Now according to Lazar a device exists that manipulates gravity in a way it warps space and time , according to Einstein's theories this is possible as it follows right along with his theories. A very basic low tech description of such a device would be the sheet example. Picture taking a sheet and tieing its corners to four chairs then pulling those chairs apart so the sheet is tight, the sheet at this point would represent space/time . Now label one corner of the sheet as point A and an opposing corner point B. Then take a bowling ball and toss it in the center of the sheet, the bowling ball would represent an intense gravity field or an object with great mass. Obviously the sheet would sag as a result of this great mass and point A and point B would be much closer together. All of the places between point A and point B would still exist unharmed they would just be in a different location or plane momentarily. Lazar's information whether born from a real experience or spawned from examining Einstein's works seems very plausible. Ill admit i made the example very simple but in a nutshell its like how our solar system works, the sun is a great ball of mass that has pulled the planets in our solar system inwards and keeps them into a gravitational orbit around it.


Now taking Lazar's info further you have his mention of gravity actually being a wave like a radio wave which this does follow with a good percentage of the scientific community also it seems to parallel Einstein again. Lazar makes mention of a gravity wave "A" and an a gravity wave "B" which he states are two different waves and im not sure at this point if we still are following Einstein's theories or not as i haven't researched that far. Gravity wave "B" is your common gravity that we are physically aware of , its the gravity that keeps us held to the ground and makes objects heavy to lift. Gravity "A" is a gravity wave we are not physically aware of but its the gravity that keeps the atoms together to form us and anything else together. Think of gravity "A" as being glue holding our atoms together so we dont fly apart and we remain a solid object. Now i didnt read Lazar's books and the info ive read on the net doesn't seem to go very far into the whole gravity "A" gravity "B" thing. However if im understanding this correctly if one where to manipulate the gravity "A" wave in such a fashion as to temporarily turn it off then the two solids could pass through each other. Such as a humans hand could pass through a solid sheet of steel , it wouldn't really be passing through it but rather occupying the same space as it at the same time. ( being one with it essentially ) Truth be known the further you go into an objects make up you find vast amounts of empty space, look at a diagram of an atom and see how much of it is empty space, then take into the fact that their is space between the atoms. ( kinda makes you wonder if it boils down to it are we just empty space and energy?)


According to Einstein's theories gravity has the ability to warp/twist/bend or pretty much do whatever it wants to do with light. A black hole is a good example of this given it is said to be a gravitational pull so intense that not even light can escape it. The swirls you see in a black hole are actually light that is being sucked into the hole and you can see how it twist the light into a funnel. To understand what im saying next you have to understand how the basics of objects are visible or not visible. Objects are visible because light is bouncing off of them , if you go into a room with no windows and turn off all forms of light then you see nothing because there is no light bouncing off of anything. Light bounces from a mass then it is taken in by your eye and you are seeing the reflection which is what makes things visible. The same as radar or sonar a signal is sent out then it hits something solid and bounces back giving the radar unit the objects form and location. Taking the above info on gravity wave type "A" into consideration if one where to be able to turn gravity "A" off then your mass would not be held together and you essentially would not be a solid. Without gravity "A" you would not have a surface for light to hit and bounce off of , are you still there? yes, but you would not be visible. ( again i may not be understanding this correctly ) Thereby by manipulating gravity "A" you could make an object invisible , as to what state you would return to after turning gravity "A" back on who knows. Possibly the atomic make up of things follows the phenomena of "quantum entanglement" and our make up is pre set to what its make up should be and the atoms would reform exactly as they should.



Now lets apply the above possibilities/theories/hypothesis/BS whatever you want to call it to the Philadelphia experiment. Now if this individual who i spoke with is correct and such a device exists its functions seem to parallel Einstein's theories and some of what Bob Lazar has said. If such a device existed obviously the US government would do everything in its power to test it and manipulate it in a matter to use it for military use. Those of you saying not everything is about the military believe me nothing could be further from the truth, imagine a device that could deliver a tank to the white house from Iraq instantly then back to Iraq in the same blink of an eye. The military uses of such a device would be endless and you would never want the general public to have any form of this technology as it wouldn't be in the interest of national security. So lets go out on a limb and say this device did/does exist and it was tested that day in 1943 on U.S.S. Eldridge and her crew. If such a device where tested without the exact knowledge of how to use it its possible you could transport a ship from one point to another in a blink of an eye. Or if you only slightly bent space/time between two points the ship would be required to use its own propulsion to get from point A to point B but you could do so in a much quicker time given the two points are now closer together. This could explain the time lapse between where the ship was seen at one point then it all the sudden was back at its original point. Then you have the whole the ship turned invisible statements this could be explained by gravity "A" being manipulated in order to bend space/time as i stated above. Going further you have reports of crew members being fused into the ship this actually would be easily explainable if the whole gravity "A" theory is correct. See with gravity "A" being off then your atoms if the theory is correct would not be a solid you would have the ability to pass through objects and vice versus. Depending on your position when the gravity "A" wave was returned to normal it would be conceivable you could literally be fused within a piece of the ship. For example for some reason you moved during this wave off time frame not only you but everything within the area affected is in this non glue like state so the ships hull may or may not be in its actual space and you might be in the space its supposed to occupy. Now say your arm was occupying the area that the ships hull was occupying then when the wave was returned to normal both your arm and the ships hull would occupy the same space. Would your arm immediately be severed ?, possibly not since both you and the ship had to return to there original form this would make me think that you and the metal would quite simply be constructed together, meaning both your atomic mass and the metals atomic mass are occupying the same space. Your veins/muscles/bones/etc would still be there but on an atomic level they would be combined with a piece of steel, how this would work is a question for physics and is outside my realm.


If such a device did/does exist and they tested it that day in 1943 then following theories of Einstein as well as others respected in the scientific community and tossing in some of Lazars statements this all makes sense to me in a twisted way. It also has me questioning how we went from combustion engines to individuals such as Einstein that came up with theories that are just now being proven had such knowledge to do come up with those theories in the first place.

I also got to thinking about how you would get around the inertia of using such a device but then it occurred to me you are not moving the space/time plane is so no inertia. There are so many tangents my mind could go off on .............however im not saying the above is a fact im just throwing out the possibility whether or not you believe it thats up to you , additional any holes you see in my thoughts let me know.





here is a low key link of to explain some of Einstein's work if you didnt grasp some of the things i said.

whyfiles.org...

Interesting idea but your understanding of relativity is flawed. In your extremely common example of the rubber sheet, when the ball is tossed in the middle points A and B are actually farther apart, not closer. Just as if you tossed a ball of infinite mass in the center, the distance from the center to the edge would also become infinite.
> aka a 'black hole'

[edit on 17-3-2005 by apc]

Interesting idea but your understanding of relativity is flawed. In your extremely common example of the rubber sheet, when the ball is tossed in the middle points A and B are actually farther apart, not closer.

Actually that is only true if you follow if you are following the warped linear line of travel meaning you go down the hole then back up out of it. However if you are still following the straight line mentality then the two points are closer , however you are actually traveling through an upper dimension plane in this case, therfore making the points closer.

Ah so you're saying the object to be teleported exits 3+1 dimensional spacetime, existing solely in the 4th physical dimension, in which its perspective does not see the 3dimensional distortion, and the distance between points is reduced. Much like particles that exist only in 2 dimensions have an entirely different perspective of gravitational warp from 3 dimensional? gotcha.

Unfortunately relativity breaks down with these theories
Gotta love strings!

> This does all sound more like controlling the properties of wormholes.. they exist in the 4th physical dimension only. Also, gravity has little to nothing to do with atoms and their structure, so the absence of gravity would not cause atom's to pass through one another.
In the case of the philadelphia project and crewmembers bonding with the hull, I could see this being the result of each item, maybe even each atom, momentarily being isolated in its own universe (just like anything that is spinning... the Earth, a basketball, etc), allowing the elctrostatic repulsion to be inert between objects.


[edit on 17-3-2005 by apc]

I used to love reading about this story even when I was literally maybe 9 years old. The thought of the men being vaporized or 'welded' into the deck always scared me though

Sorry, but that theory doesn't hold up if you have even a basic knowledge of physics. Atoms are not held together by gravity, they are held together by electromagnetic force. Energy from black holes comes from the event-horizon, not light being sucked in. Black holes do emit energy, it's called Hawking Radiation. Gravity behaves as a wave but does not propagate to a specific wavelength. If you used gravity to pull two locations towards one another there would be an incredible release of kinetic energy (read megatons worth). Bending space time is fine, but an object travelling across that bend would be subject to the same distortions and experience no perceptible change, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Did you really just put Bob Lazar's gibberish claims in the same context as Einstein's theory of relativity?

I don't know much about einstein's theories or any of that other stuff you mentioned but what I do know is that lazar was proven to be a big lier:

www.serve.com...

[edit on 3/18/2005 by scorpionxx]

I don't know much about Einstein’s theories or any of that other stuff you mentioned but what I do know is that lazar was proven to be a big lier:

Did you really just put Bob Lazar's gibberish claims in the same context as Einstein's theory of relativity?

Lets clear these two up first as they are the easiest to explain , yes im aware that there are several things that could debunk lazars claims however i have noted that lazars claims seem to be based in physics. Im not saying his claims are true but they do seem to parallel Einstein’s work to some extent , the validity of his claims has yet to be sufficiently be proven or for that matter disproven. Do i believe his claims? not entirely however im of the belief that all statements are based upon some truth, so perhaps Lazar was aware of something however what he did have knowledge of wasn’t “book worthy” so it got embellished. Its like when I was young and a buddy of mine and I used to drive out to an old farm to drink , have some alone time with girlfriends or whatever our parents didn’t want us to do. When our parents asked where we had been our reply was “ we went by bobby’s house” , truth be known we really did. Bobby’s house just happened to be on the way to the old farm and every time we went to the farm we drove by Bobby’s house. ( technically not a lie in a teens mind hehe) Lazar most likely did do something for the government and he may have actually worked on a device similar in nature to the one I was told existed but Lazar may or may not have understood it so he threw a few aliens into the story and a grand conspiracy. Who knows however that is neither here nor there…….

Ah so you're saying the object to be teleported exits 3+1 dimensional spacetime, existing solely in the 4th physical dimension, in which its perspective does not see the 3dimensional distortion, and the distance between points is reduced. Much like particles that exist only in 2 dimensions have an entirely different perspective of gravitational warp from 3 dimensional? gotcha.

Unfortunately relativity breaks down with these theories
Gotta love strings!

I think your misunderstanding me where im saying the object is continuing in linear travel even though space/time is being warped. In essence im saying the object jumps the gap ( or hole if you want to call it that) Its similar ( all be it very simplified ) to if you jump into the air , as you are jumping the world continues to spin and gravity is still in effect , however by the time you have landed the point you jumped from has physically moved as a result of earth’s rotation. True you didn’t move a great distance or even one easily measured but jumping outside of the gravitational field ( not technically) the original point you jumped from point A has moved and you are now at point B. As you are airborne you are still traveling in a linear manner as a result of the earth’s rotation even though you are unaware of it. In my description the sag is created bringing point A to point B then essentially you jump the gap created .

Sorry, but that theory doesn't hold up if you have even a basic knowledge of physics. Atoms are not held together by gravity, they are held together by electromagnetic force.

Currently we do believe electromagnetic forces is what holds together atoms due to the fact we can use our current technology to generate a field strong enough to cause a disruption within matter. But at the same time all of these theories about electromagnetic forces go back to one point of origin “gravity”. Truth be known we don’t really even know what gravity is , like I said before the whole wave theory is just one theory and it’s the most widely accepted theory. Im not saying electromagnetic forces don’t come into play but at the same time these forces are born from something which always seems to stem back to gravity. Remember not to long ago we firmly believed the sun circled the earth , if we don’t question our current knowledge then we cease to learn.

Energy from black holes comes from the event-horizon, not light being sucked in. Black holes do emit energy, it's called Hawking Radiation.

Yes that is called “ hawking radiation” named after Stephen Hawking yet im not sure why your stating that, perhaps I overlooked something I said or maybe I misworded something and you misunderstood it but I didn’t say that energy came from light being sucked into a black hole. Again I apologize if I led anyone to believe that I was stating that.

If you used gravity to pull two locations towards one another there would be an incredible release of kinetic energy (read megatons worth). Bending space time is fine, but an object travelling across that bend would be subject to the same distortions and experience no perceptible change, etc, etc, etc, etc...

Again I either didn’t explain myself sufficiently or you misunderstood what I was saying, yes an object traveling in the bend would be subject to any of the laws in effect in the bend. However I referring to traveling across the bend as in jumping essentially ( like I said above ) Picture the sheet example again where point A and point B have been pulled together now lay an additional sheet over top the sagging sheet but keep this sheet tight. An object traveling on the tight sheet passes over top the sag/bend and from point A to point B then remove the bowling ball and allow the bottom sheet ( space/time ) to spring back to its original position. The object has traveled the now short distance between the two points and outside of the bend.

Just adding more past ATS member information to the 'fire'.
Topic and Discussion Index for PHILADELPHIA/MONTAUK/RAINBOW/ELDRIDGE EXPERIMENTS/PROJECT




seekerof

There's no way to rule out the experiment as being impossible according to the laws of physics or chemistry. The fact is, both sets of laws are only temporary.

Diehard physicists may not like that but it's perfectly true. It could be that within a decade we discover new irregularities in the "laws" that we have now that confirm the truth of the Philadelphia Experiment.

hey minniescar, very impressive post from the effort and thought put into it. I'm not educated in physics, so I'll pass on that angle. What caught my eye is this ;

"It also has me questioning how we went from combustion engines to individuals such as Einstein that came up with theories that are just now being proven had such knowledge to do come up with those theories in the first place. "

Are you implying he had divine or alien help ?

I've seen this idea on these boards many times. I think the tech boom is due in large part to simple progress in communication and cooperation and resources. inventors/scientists/genius' were able to build on each others ideas, share ideas and had more sponsors or patrons so to speak to back them with equipment and materials etc. Its literally like a snowball effect. It would be tough to invent the intenet before electricty, right ? Once the ground work is in place, the human mind is capable of great leaps.

Are you implying he had divine or alien help ?

No im not even speculating as to the how as far as Einstien is concerned but it does make one curious , however i do not perscribe to the theory einstein was an alien of sorts. As far as communications where concerned during einsteins times they where still in somewhat of a primitive state of development compared to todays form but i do agree communications has helped us greatly in new developments.

Sorry to be so short on my answer there but im leaving work as we speak so ill be back monday...............

Originally posted by minniescar

Lets clear these two up first as they are the easiest to explain , yes im aware that there are several things that could debunk lazars claims however i have noted that lazars claims seem to be based in physics.

Think about the logic of that statement. Of course they're based in physics, just as all science fiction is based upon science. What is the alternative, to be based in magic? I'm not trying to be insulting, but what is your educational level in science and physics? The truth is, with only a meager amount of education in these things Lazar's claims instantly fall apart.

I think your misunderstanding me where im saying the object is continuing in linear travel even though space/time is being warped.

No, you are misunderstanding: you can't jump the gap because there is no gap. It's a warped field, and you would be subject to the same distortion. Even light cannot jump the gap. It is bent.

Currently we do believe electromagnetic forces is what holds together atoms due to the fact we can use our current technology to generate a field strong enough to cause a disruption within matter. But at the same time all of these theories about electromagnetic forces go back to one point of origin “gravity”.

You're talking about the Grand Unified Theory. Gravity is not a point of origin. The theory stipulates that under the extreme conditions immediately following the Big Bang, all modern physical forces were actually one, including gravity, along with strong, weak, EM.

Truth be known we don’t really even know what gravity is , like I said before the whole wave theory is just one theory and it’s the most widely accepted theory.

Now you're being silly. We have a very very detailed knowledge of what gravity is. Problem is, Lazar does not. Does our current technology enable us to manipulate gravitational fields in the ways you describe? No. Do we know everything? No, of course not. But we do know enough to say that the things Lazar claims are simply not possible according to the way he (and hence you) describe.

Remember not to long ago we firmly believed the sun circled the earth , if we don’t question our current knowledge then we cease to learn.

No. Every advanced civilization back to the Persians knew from planetary retrograde phenomena that indeed the Sun was the center of the solar system. It was not until the religious fervor and blind worship of uneducated masses during the middle ages that an Earth-Centric was sustained. Are we headed back into dark ages of fanaticism and psuedo-science? Very good arguments could be made for that, but I digress...

Again I either didn’t explain myself sufficiently or you misunderstood what I was saying, yes an object traveling in the bend would be subject to any of the laws in effect in the bend. However I referring to traveling across the bend as in jumping essentially ( like I said above )

I understand exactly what you mean. However, you must understand that anything with mass (you or me) would be subject to the same forces that are distorting the fabric in the first place.

I have a photo a came across that deals with Progect Rainbow

www.softwareartist.com...

ther you go..are these real or fake....

Think about the logic of that statement. Of course they're based in physics, just as all science fiction is based upon science. What is the alternative, to be based in magic? I'm not trying to be insulting, but what is your educational level in science and physics? The truth is, with only a meager amount of education in these things Lazar's claims instantly fall apart.

First and foremost ive stated numerous times this is not a thread nor a conversation about lazars claims however it seems that’s the only thing people are getting fromt this. It seems you see the name lazar and of course everything that follows it must be a lie or incorrect. I have mearly stated the information given to me and noted it seems to parralell Lazars claims. As to your statements that a meager understanding of physics would make Lazars claims instantly fall apart I fail to see you mention one little shred of evidence of his statements falling outside the laws of physics. However that is neither here nor there as ive said before this was not meant to be a discussion of lazars statements , it was a discussion of information that was given to me first hand.

No, you are misunderstanding: you can't jump the gap because there is no gap. It's a warped field, and you would be subject to the same distortion. Even light cannot jump the gap. It is bent.

Again that is based upon your belief and you are not understanding or ignoring what im saying. To my understanding yes space/time are warped but due to being the epicenter of said warp you remain unaffected. As an example picture a black hole ( please remember this is an example not a factual statement just an example ) ok a black hole is a warp in space/time if you travel in a linear fashion as gravity would force you then in order to get from one side of the hole to another ( point A to point B ) you would go down into the hole ( the warp ) and have to figure out some form of propulsion strong enough to propel you from the bottom back to the top. This of course would be a great distance, however if you could continue in a straight line unaffected by gravity from point A to point B you would jump the “gap” thereby eliminating the travel within the warped field. As far as light not jumping a gap that is true as long as the gravitational field effects it , if the gravitational field was not affecting it then the light would not be sucked into the hole nor would it be bent.

You're talking about the Grand Unified Theory. Gravity is not a point of origin. The theory stipulates that under the extreme conditions immediately following the Big Bang, all modern physical forces were actually one, including gravity, along with strong, weak, EM.

No actually I was not referring to the Grand unified theory, I was referring to each one of these fields when researched will lead back to gravitational fields either causing them or being a great part of them.

Now you're being silly. We have a very very detailed knowledge of what gravity is. Problem is, Lazar does not. Does our current technology enable us to manipulate gravitational fields in the ways you describe? No. Do we know everything? No, of course not. But we do know enough to say that the things Lazar claims are simply not possible according to the way he (and hence you) describe.

I in no way see myself as being silly here but if you can show factual proof that gravity is a wave or if the graviton particle or any other theory is correct then ill recant that statement. Additionally im not restating Lazars statements I am making my own statements based upon what was told to me, while looking into what I was told I remembered reading about Lazar and I noticed a similarity. Im noticing you are still see that one word “ Lazar” so there for dismissing anything that accompanies it. Going further you state that we cannot manipulate gravitational fields yet we know what im saying is not possible , now let me get this straight we don’t know how to manipulate gravity but we for damn sure know if we could what the effects would be? This seems a tad vein if you ask me , that’s like saying “ we havent been to mars yet but we know life cannot exist there” Oh that’s right we did say that I believe I was even taught that as a school boy yet I seem to notice a few recent articles where a scientist or two might be recanting those statements as they find signs of microbial life.

No. Every advanced civilization back to the Persians knew from planetary retrograde phenomena that indeed the Sun was the center of the solar system. It was not until the religious fervor and blind worship of uneducated masses during the middle ages that an Earth-Centric was sustained. Are we headed back into dark ages of fanaticism and psuedo-science? Very good arguments could be made for that, but I digress...

In your statement you not only disagree with me but in fact confirm my statement at the same time. Yes we did in fact believe ( the scientific community itself ) that the sun revolved around the earth , the whole “ I think therefore I am” mentality. This was actually taught to people as factual when in fact it was not, so therefore we did believe the sun circled the earth. Earlier cultures may/did not believe this to be true but non the less it was within the past couple of hundred years we thought the sun circled the earth.

I understand exactly what you mean. However, you must understand that anything with mass (you or me) would be subject to the same forces that are distorting the fabric in the first place.

Again you are stating that even though we do not have the current technology to distort space and time but we have the knowledge to know exactly what the effects are? Remember this is based upon theories and theories are not facts as they have yet to be fully proven and therefore anomalies that are unknown could still be discovered.

Good Stuff ! ATS really has some Mind-Bogglers as members, I won't even try to go that deep as I'd have to quote other peoples books.

Having said that and from my level (lower, much lower), I'm starting to think that inertia is off-set at the atomic level. That through enough EM there comes a point when all mass moves through space time at the same rate. No Inertia.

That the bending of space-time is possible and the theory's been out there that I know of for quite some time. Von Braun, Tesla and others I beleive were involved with the experiment at least in the beginning.

I believe Tesla's death and confiscation of his scientific notes are possibly related to his declining to complete his work on the experiment and eventual failure (in Human terms) of the experiment which Von Braun and others elected to go ahead with.

All speculation.

Dallas

Originally posted by minniescar

I give up. If you devoted half your energy into studying proper physics instead of rhetoricizing red-herring psuedo-science, indeed you may begin to realize the folly of your misplaced endeavor.

[edit on 26/3/05 by Templarum]