Adaptations are clear evidence of intelligent design

a reply to: cooperton

I started to research deeper into scientific observations and inevitably realized random chance mutations cannot culminate in the intricately designed systems, especially neural systems which I was studying formally at the time. It also defied chemistry, given the vast multitude of biochemical cascades that all rely on eachother and therefore could not have come to be sequentially.

And yet, you can't provide a single experiment conducted by you or anyone else that demonstrates empirical evidence for your opinion. That makes your opinion worthless. It's like saying "I've studied vaccines and know that xyz compound is more effective than current vaccines" - but can't provide an iota of evidence.

Totally false and fake. As usual.

originally posted by: Phantom423


And yet, you can't provide a single experiment conducted by you or anyone else that demonstrates empirical evidence for your opinion. That makes your opinion worthless. It's like saying "I've studied vaccines and know that xyz compound is more effective than current vaccines" - but can't provide an iota of evidence.

Totally false and fake. As usual.

It's difficult, and also not my responsibility, to prove a negative (evolution not being responsible for the origin of species). It's your responsibility to prove evolution is responsible for the origin of species. So far there's no evidence that shows a population of organisms can gradually become a new organism. On the contrary, even though it's not my responsibility to prove a negative, there are an abundance of hurdles that make it impossible for random piece-by-piece mutations to have been made by proposed evolutionary mechanisms.

. Look no further than ATP synthase. It requires a multitude of various sub-proteins in order for it to function, and these fit together in a way that allows it to generate energy from an electrochemical gradient. This one piece is not sufficient though, because ATP synthase requires the other proteins of the electron transport chain to function. All pieces must be present for it to work, and therefore it could not have come to be sequentially. This sort of logic is what made me realize evolution is not true.

a reply to: cooperton

There are over 500 peer-reviewed journals and thousands of research papers that prove that you're wrong.

You're the one who says it's not possible while not providing an iota of empirical evidence.
Either you provide experimental evidence or it's just your opinion - which is worthless.

All science rests on experimental evidence. And you have none.

a reply to: cooperton

. Look no further than ATP synthase. It requires a multitude of various sub-proteins in order for it to function, and these fit together in a way that allows it to generate energy from an electrochemical gradient. This one piece is not sufficient though, because ATP synthase requires the other proteins of the electron transport chain to function. All pieces must be present for it to work, and therefore it could not have come to be sequentially. This sort of logic is what made me realize evolution is not true.

Your example is absolutely stupid. You could pick one of millions of biochemical reactions and draw the same conclusions i.e. that the components are required to trigger the reaction.

Water needs H2 and O. Wow - how did that happen? H and O just happen to be present at the same time - maybe the guy in the sky did it. And water has an uneven distribution of electron density such that some compounds can dissolve in it. Wow! Who'd a thunk??? Not possible without the guy in the sky.

You don't understand how real science works. Without experimental data for an hypothesis, you have nothing. And you have nothing but your opinion.

Incredulity is Cooperton's evidence.

originally posted by: TerraLiga
Incredulity is Cooperton's evidence.

Debate what I am discussing. How could ATP synthase have evolved given all of its sub-units? How could the entirety of the electron transport chain have evolved given the multitude of proteins required for it to function as a whole. You need all pieces for it to work effectively, so how could evolution have created it in a piece-by-piece manner?

originally posted by: Phantom423

Your example is absolutely stupid. You could pick one of millions of biochemical reactions and draw the same conclusions i.e. that the components are required to trigger the reaction.

lol exactly. Sequential production of these various proteins cannot create the complex biochemical cascades that are necessary for most every function in our body.

I always kind of liked Rupert Sheldrake's notion of "morphic resonance," which basically boils down to the idea that what we perceive as shapes and forms for living and non-living things have a component that is atemporal. It doesn't just go from the past through the present and into the future, but rather a form or shape that exists in the future can allow a currently existing form to be "prepped" for an upcoming change in environment that it will need to adapt to (and apparently successfully did adapt to, since they made it into the future).

Probably the biggest flaw in the reasoning for intelligent design and creationism is the reliance on linear time. But linear time is an illusion created in our own brains. For the most part, everything that has ever happened or will happen is actually happening right now, with no handsome omnipotent superbeing required to make anything work.

originally posted by: cooperton

Debate what I am discussing. How could ATP synthase have evolved given all of its sub-units? How could the entirety of the electron transport chain have evolved given the multitude of proteins required for it to function as a whole. You need all pieces for it to work effectively, so how could evolution have created it in a piece-by-piece manner?

Again, you are looking at what is present right now and seeing it as an impossible interdependent riddle. If you accepted evolution and adaptation then looked at the evidence for it you could see how that could happen over time. You don't accept it, so you look at what it is now and say it's impossible without design. Open your mind.

originally posted by: TerraLiga

Again, you are looking at what is present right now and seeing it as an impossible interdependent riddle. If you accepted evolution and adaptation then looked at the evidence for it you could see how that could happen over time. You don't accept it, so you look at what it is now and say it's impossible without design. Open your mind.

Whats the proposed mechanism for these biochemical components to come forth piece-by-piece? Or are you asking me just to believe evolution without evidence?

originally posted by: Blue Shift
I always kind of liked Rupert Sheldrake's notion of "morphic resonance," .

Yeah a lot of that resonates with me. Pun intended. Especially given how organisms heal, it seams as though there is some sort of Morphic memory that allows the body to heal properly. Look at lizards even capable of entire limb regrowth. For that to be programmed on the biochemical level is absolutely beyond our understanding, it makes much sense that there is an electromagnetic component orchestrating these functions. The Body Electric is a good book that discusses the necessity of electromagnetism for life

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: peter vlar

Along with eyes, Neanderthals had significantly larger bodies than humans, with wider shoulders, thicker bones and a more robust build overall. So they actually had more.body mass than we do today.

I just did a quick google search on average neanderthal size and it came up with about the same as current human averages. What is the evidence that insists they were larger bodied on average?

While not as tall and skinny as H. Sapiens, Neanderthal had an incredibly broad barrel cjeat, their bones were much more dense than ours and their muscle mass was considerably more than seen in contemporary H. Sapiens. I can attest to this from some of my own work where I had to measure attachment point scarring where the muscles and tendons attached to the bone. The larger tge scarring the more.muscle the individual had. We then compared those results to H. Sapiens from roughly the same time periods as the Neanderthal specimens we examined. In every instance, despite an average heightndifference of 2 to 3 inches" the Neanderthal always came up with a larger body mass over all.

So not only were they not significantly smarter than H. Sapiens they had to compensate in other areas.of the brain for the larger occipital lobe which meams that areas dealing with socialization were actually smaller. This may.be why they operated in smaller groups than AMH.

Larger occipital also insists on better sensory ability, possibly for hunting and foraging. Never looked into LGM, it never occurred to me that the white-tops of mountains would have been extended to lower altitudes during such a time. What's the leading theory regarding erratics that are outside the bound of these ice zones? i.e. how do they suppose so many boulders end up in baja california? To me this is where a global flood seems best fitting.

How exactly does a larger occipital lobe "insist" on better sensory ability? Actually I can kind of see where yourengping with that but you're focusing on the way their brain's were organized while excluding all of the environmental factors as well as what they were lacking in social skills. They were living in a much colder climate than H. Sapiens were. Their home was Eurasia during Europe's Ice Ages with much dimmer lighting conditions as well as having to deal with things like snow blindness from the sun reflecting off of the glaciers and snow during the winters. They were a very specialized and rugged branch of humanity. While some people think they were able to live in many environments, they only mograted to the Levant and Middle East when the conditions were cold enough.

As for your speculation on a biblical flood... I'm not a geologist and wont pretend to be an expert in a field I'm not traoned on so I honestly can't give you a legitimate opinion without going into a long diatribe about the OT and why I think the flood myth is untenable.

a reply to: cooperton

Look at lizards even capable of entire limb regrowth. For that to be programmed on the biochemical level is absolutely beyond our understanding, it makes much sense that there is an electromagnetic component orchestrating these functions

Hang on a minute FITO said above that he suffered depression and then a healing due to Gods miracles, using your example gods busy tending to every lizard as well on a daily busy. Quite a feat for a god who hasn't intervened in allowing novel diseases to arise almost spontaneously, or are we still paying for the sins of Adam & Eve?

originally posted by: TerraLiga
You don't accept it, so you look at what it is now and say it's impossible without design. Open your mind.

No, I know what is involved to make a functioning electron transport chain and it requires a multitude of proteins. Each protein also requires meticulous sub-units that are coded for in proper order to allow them to create a quaternary structure that generates a functioning protein. These sub-units are so specific that ATP synthase acts like an electrochemical motor as the gradient within the mitochondria spins it like a turbine. The gradient is formed by the preceding proteins. This process is not possible without all the components in play.



I have given this much thought. It is what made me realize that biochemically speaking, evolution is not possible. Start with ATP synthase, how could it have come to be by random mutations to the genetic code?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight

Hang on a minute FITO said above that he suffered depression and then a healing due to Gods miracles, using your example gods busy tending to every lizard as well on a daily busy. Quite a feat for a god who hasn't intervened in allowing novel diseases to arise almost spontaneously, or are we still paying for the sins of Adam & Eve?

I believe in our very minds is the inherited mind of the Creator God. We are creators (or destroyers). We are given a lot responsibility. We're supposed to figure this out on our own with subtle guidance, it's not fun if you're just placed in a garden paradise without having first faced adversity. Nor is it commendable if you're just forced into graduating.

originally posted by: peter vlar

As for your speculation on a biblical flood... I'm not a geologist and wont pretend to be an expert in a field I'm not traoned on so I honestly can't give you a legitimate opinion without going into a long diatribe about the OT and why I think the flood myth is untenable.

Although the reservoirs of water necessary for such a flood have been found underneath the ocean, there have been fish fossils found on mountains all throughout the world, boulder erratics outside the range of glaciers during the theorized ice ages, and probably most compelling is the universality of the accounts of a global flood from cultures all throughout the world. I don't have a degree in geology but I have enthusiastically researched this matter objectively. It's quite astonishing.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: TzarChasm

Makes it humanly impossible to demonstrate with any degree of credibility that there is such a thing as this extra dimensional mind you keep talking about. Which proves my point.

No because someone who is open to it is able to start to feel the biofeedback and sense on a higher level than the dulled sensorium of hedonistic pursuits.

Someone who is closed off cannot receive these gifts

"And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith. "

Your doubt is capable of shutting you off from reality.

The quote is from the Bible. So I assume the intelligent designer is the Christian God (The Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit). There are many different Gods for different cultures that have other guiding scriptures. Maybe all of them are the same with different names, but how do we explain their differences? How does one determine which is the True God?