Train crashes, catches fire on Tempe [Arizona] Town Lake bridge

a reply to: Black_Fox

It probably was just a freak accident, but these days of desperate parties doing everything they can to avoid going to jail, we can't just rule it out.

originally posted by: Nothin

Railroad ties were damaged, causing a partial collapse of the bridge. Rail cars fell through the gap and landed in a park, which was empty.

Where in that statement, does it say that the damaged ties led to the derailment ?
Could not the ties have been damaged by the derailment ?
You know:
1 - Whatever causing a derailment;
2 - Tons of rail-car wheels ripping on rail-ties;
3 - Fires and partial collapse ?

Seems to me that we don't have enough info, although we all know ATS'ers love to jump to conclusions.

You serious? You just quoted it ...

It says that:
1. Railroad time were damaged.
2. This caused a partial collapse of the bridge. (If it does not occur to you, a partially collapsed bridge will probably not support the weight of a train very well.)
3. Railroad cars fell through the gap that was caused by the partial collapse of the bridge which was a result of the damaged ties.
4. When railroad cars fall through a gap in a rail bridge that is the result of damaged railroad times, ... uhhhhh ... it kinda seems that maybe those damaged ties had something to do with the fact that the cars FELL THROUGH THE GAP (i.e., DERAILED!!!!!)

I don't know how it could get any clearer.

Or do you reason that the derailment was not caused by the damaged railroad ties but by the gap that was caused by the damaged railroad ties, hence the damaged ties were only indirectly responsible for the derailment?

I'm confused. Or maybe you are. Dunno ...
:

Years ago you could walk that bridge at night. Im not sure how security is there recently. It used to be a place for the local homeless to sleep before they fixed up the park there. There may have been security cameras under the bridge. I have not been to TTL in a while.

We just watched a live news update... the chemical tanks are leaking now. It looks like they came off the bridge onto Rio Salado Pkwy and/or a parking lot on the south side of Rio Salado, so they're leaking onto concrete. I guess that's good. Better than the river, or the strip of greenbelt between the river and the road.

Fire crews are still at work trying to put out hot spots and smoldering spots. It's 112° right now... I really feel for them.

originally posted by: staple

There may have been security cameras under the bridge. I have not been to TTL in a while.

That would be good... but I guess that goes without saying.

My husband is more suspicious than I am -- and that's a surprise! It wouldn't be the first time train tracks have been sabotaged here: Sabotage Derails Arizona Train; One Is Killed and 100 Are Hurt

Four typewritten notes, attacking the ATF and the FBI for the 1993 Waco Siege, criticizing local law enforcement, and signed "Sons of the Gestapo", were found near the scene of the wreck, indicating that the train had been sabotaged. All four notes were similar. Two of the notes were found by Neal Hallford and Craig Lembke, passengers traveling from Oklahoma to San Diego.

It was found that the rails had been shifted out of position to cause the derailment, but only after they had been connected with wires. This kept the track circuit closed, circumventing safety systems designed to warn locomotive engineers of track problems, and suggested that the saboteurs had a working knowledge of railroads.

That one was in 1995, near the nuclear power plant in Palo Verde, and was in retaliation for Waco.

originally posted by: incoserv

originally posted by: Nothin

Railroad ties were damaged, causing a partial collapse of the bridge. Rail cars fell through the gap and landed in a park, which was empty.

Where in that statement, does it say that the damaged ties led to the derailment ?
Could not the ties have been damaged by the derailment ?
You know:
1 - Whatever causing a derailment;
2 - Tons of rail-car wheels ripping on rail-ties;
3 - Fires and partial collapse ?

Seems to me that we don't have enough info, although we all know ATS'ers love to jump to conclusions.

You serious? You just quoted it ...

It says that:
1. Railroad time were damaged.
2. This caused a partial collapse of the bridge. (If it does not occur to you, a partially collapsed bridge will probably not support the weight of a train very well.)
3. Railroad cars fell through the gap that was caused by the partial collapse of the bridge which was a result of the damaged ties.
4. When railroad cars fall through a gap in a rail bridge that is the result of damaged railroad times, ... uhhhhh ... it kinda seems that maybe those damaged ties had something to do with the fact that the cars FELL THROUGH THE GAP (i.e., DERAILED!!!!!)

I don't know how it could get any clearer.

Or do you reason that the derailment was not caused by the damaged railroad ties but by the gap that was caused by the damaged railroad ties, hence the damaged ties were only indirectly responsible for the derailment?

I'm confused. Or maybe you are. Dunno ...
:

Me : confused ? You betcha ! And about a lot more than just this story, but that's another matter... LoL ! !

Was merely saying that we don't have enough info to reach any kind of a conclusion.

Have walked and biked across many railroad bridges in my life, always looking and observing, and can't recall seeing any rail bridge ever supported by the ties.

Railroad ties were damaged, causing a partial collapse of the bridge. Rail cars fell through the gap and landed in a park, which was empty.

Huge ten-car freight train derailment in Tempe, Arizona sparks fireball and bridge collapse and fears of a toxic leak from tanker marked 'hazardous materials'

A freight train derailed in Tempe, Arizona Wednesday morning, sparking a huge fire and causing part of a bridge to collapse. Pictures from the scene show the blaze over Tempe Beach Park after up to ten cars derailed, including a tanker labeled with a hazardous materials sign.

When reading the second quote : do they not say that that a derailment, caused a fire, and causing the bridge collapse ?

How much damage do you figure 10 fully-loaded, derailed rail-cars would do to the ties, as they rip-over them ?

Yes : sometimes rail-ties are poorly maintained, and damaged beyond being safe, but still in use.

My point was, and is : that we don't have enough info to reach conclusions yet.
That info will probably be forthcoming.

But this is ATS, so yeah : Antifa, or whatever other boogeyman did it...

a reply to: Boadicea

This could be malicious damage, but I think it is less likely than from wear and tear and maintenance issues.

If the ties had become loose, they could still look to be 'in place' to casual inspection, but actually allow the rails to 'wiggle aside' under extreme loads.

When the rails are moved slightly aside, the train wheels aren't going to stay on the tracks, but will slip off.

When the wheels aren't supported by the rails, they can dig in between the sleepers (not immediately but as the wheels repeatedly bounce over the sleepers). The sleepers, then get pushed apart in the direction the train is going and if the ties are already loose, they can completely pull off the sleepers, opening a gap under the train and pushing the rails completely out of the way.

If the driver applied the brakes after bouncing over the derailed section, the friction heat on the wheels further back on the train could have been sufficient to ignite oil, grease, and dirt close to the brake pads, sparking a fire.

This scenario is entirely speculative, but, I suspect, physically possible.

a reply to: chr0naut

It sounds plausible to me... thanks for offering a voice of reason.

If it weren't for it happening right on the heels of the protest, which already seemed weird to me, then I probably wouldn't be suspicious at all...

Well, that's probably not true... who am I kidding? I'd at least wonder! I am an ATSer and conspiracy is the name of the game...

Another video of a press conference with city officials. A couple takeaways:

1. There was a previous derailment and/or fire at that same spot on the tracks on June 26. Not much more info than that.

2. The FBI was called immediately, but they have no clear indication of sabotage or tampering as of now.

originally posted by: Guyfriday
If the rails were missing then I could see the train digging in and going through the bridge...

They use continuous welded rail, you'd need a very large angle grinder to remove a section and you'd be surprised how much you actually need to remove to cause a derailment.

originally posted by: Boadicea
2. The FBI was called immediately, but they have no clear indication of sabotage or tampering as of now.

Bummer, so many people wanted it to be sabotage.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Bummer, so many people wanted it to be sabotage.

Okay, darn you, I admit I slightly resemble that remark...

But no, not a bummer at all... well, it's a bummer that it happened, just not a bummer that it wasn't sabotage! And no, I didn't "want" it to be sabotage, but I did don my tinfoil hat rather quickly.

And all of my words will have to stand on their own merit (or lack thereof)!

originally posted by: Boadicea
Okay, darn you, I admit I slightly resemble that remark...

But no, not a bummer at all... well, it's a bummer that it happened, just not a bummer that it wasn't sabotage! And no, I didn't "want" it to be sabotage, but I did don my tinfoil hat rather quickly.

And all of my words will have to stand on their own merit (or lack thereof)!

I just spoke to someone at Union Pacific, they said the derailment was due to BLM tying a white person to the tracks and letting the train run them over. BLM, when asked for a comment, said that person didn't even feel guilty about what they did to him and further stated he said, 'I had it coming and so do the rest of you'.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Well, I won't say, "I told you so"... I'm just especially cool that way.

But not cool of your buddy waiting to tell you until just now. Not cool at all. Hrmph!

Put this in the "for what it's worth" category: There is a rumor making the rounds that the derailment was caused by BLM protesters placing propane tanks on the tracks, which exploded and ignited when hit by the train, and then dragged along the tracks, igniting the railroad ties.

I have heard this from more than one source, and it's the only rumor I'm hearing... I have not heard multiple theories...

And there's not much coming from official sources at all.

So take it for what it's worth.

originally posted by: Boadicea
Put this in the "for what it's worth" category: There is a rumor making the rounds that the derailment was caused by BLM protesters placing propane tanks on the tracks, which exploded and ignited when hit by the train, and then dragged along the tracks, igniting the railroad ties.

As someone who's done bad things to propane tanks I can tell you that they don't explode. They rupture and often shoot into the air like a missile.

It's most likely something mundane like a hotbox (overheated roller bearings) causing a derailment and a fire on the railcar above which then spread to other cars.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

As someone who's done bad things to propane tanks I can tell you that they don't explode. They rupture and often shoot into the air like a missile.

Good to know -- thank you! I literally have no frame of reference since I've never done anything with any propane tanks... Well, actually, I know they're pressurized and not to leave them in the sun...

It's most likely something mundane like a hotbox (overheated roller bearings) causing a derailment and a fire on the railcar above which then spread to other cars.

Okay... but... um... that means pretty much nothing to me! But I'm also pretty sure my ignorance says everything about me and me alone...

Thanks for sharing for those who can make some sense out of it.

a reply to: Boadicea

Got to about 3:10 in this video:



A hotbox occurs when the lubrication on the axle bearing fails, you then get bare steel riding on steel, it quickly overheats and can derail the train and/or cause fires. Notice the red glow of overheated metal and the sparks coming off, this isn't even a bad one.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Ahhhhh... now I gotcha!

And I'm just guessing the heat we've had lately wouldn't help. I know we hit 118° one day last week, not sure which day. But seriously, once it hits 110° it's just fricking HOT! And every day last week was over 110°.