transgender and Rowloing cancelled

a reply to: paraphi

your post is quite interesting and has merit.

what your describing is the lizard man and cat man from Ripley believe it or not 2000 tv series , season one episode 2

in it are two men who are turning themselves into the animals they identify (as one description to keep with your point) with.
one a cat (more of a big wild one like a lion ) and one a lizard.

the cat man grew out and shaped his hair (head and facial), sharpened his teeth, implanted whiskers, altered his upper lip to resemble a cat, ect.

the lizard man was (at the time of show) finishing up his whole body tattoos (from head (bald btw) to two in green scales) contacts in his eyes, sharpening his teeth, split is tongue (like a serpent), ect.

both were quite reasonable fellows and one (that I remember for sure ) the lizard man was a circus performer.

both wanted the change to their perceived animals and living (within reason , for example the cat man (if i remember right) didnt use a litterbox) .

most (while thinking this is quite unusual to outright weird) people accepted their portrayal and vision..

but there is a key difference between them and the transsexual movement

both openly admitted and clearly stated... THEY WERE NOT A CAT OR A LIZARD..

they were PLAYING A ROLE.

in the case (as the fierce argument presented by saturn FX is an example ) of transsexual community/movement doesnt want to live and be called like the opposite gender.

they want to be treated , accepted and BE THE OPPOSITE BIOLOGICAL GENDER

LOCK STOCK AND BARREL

that there is no difference (be with full change, in the beginning and all points in between) between a biological female/male and a transgender male/female

even to the point its "fluid" (can change between them at will) and in more extreme faction that there are more than male/female.


if (as the lizard and cat man) the movement was wanting what they are, living that way but not being that way.. you have a point

but the cold hard truth is they REALLY WANT TO BE the gender/sex THEIR BIOLOGY DOESNT ALLOW nor ever will.

Hence the name calling, attempted shaming and fighting anyone who will not accept their definition of BIOLOGICAL SEX/GENDER nor accept that they cannot and never be XX when XY and vice versa

scrounger

originally posted by: scrounger
even your definition of gender misses (or left out deliberately) is that its HOW SOCIETY VIEWS the person , characteristics and roles.

Its not my definition, its just the definition. I didn't create the english language.
You can't alter the definition to suit your ideals..thats not how language works.

The definition of gender isn't about HOW SOCIETY VIEWS the person...I know this because it doesn't say that in the definition.
its about how the person in question identifies with the role and its construct. Its ultimately an expression.

originally posted by: paraphi
I don't think that anyone disagrees with that.

Incorrect. I have been debating this entire thread with people (well, one person at least but he is getting stars with like minded people) who think the two words mean the exact same...and also refuse to post the definitions of the two (gender vs sex).
And thats the debate

Sex is biological based on chromosomes and reproductive parts etc. People cannot change their biological sex, although they can have surgery and take drugs which make a person resemble a different sex. A person born a male can never become a female, for example.

Gender seems to be word of confusion. For the vast majority of people “gender” is co-terminus with sex. This is especially true when looking at woman’s rights and aspects of law.

We are on the same page, yes
Gender is not the same as biological sex
as per the defintion
a gendered term is woman. a biological sex term is female
The debate is should a trans person be identified as their gendered term (aka: woman).I think sure...but there should be caveats. trans means transitioning from one gender to another, so effort needs to be made. Doing the best they can to alter their body and transition as convincingly as possible before pronouns and such is even respected.

Where bathrooms are concerned..I dream of a world where the most common is a single stall unisex...and then anyone use whatevers open, just wash your hands afterwards.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
The debate is should a trans person be identified as their gendered term (aka: woman).I think sure...but there should be caveats. trans means transitioning from one gender to another, so effort needs to be made. Doing the best they can to alter their body and transition as convincingly as possible before pronouns and such is even respected.

Um, you mentioned "caveats". The fanatical trans movement does not believe in such whimsical flexibility. Trans means different things to different people, including just dressing up to look like someone of the opposite sex, so it does not necessarily mean someone is actually going through a drug and surgical process. In fact, most "trans" people don't go down the road of surgery, so the decisive "cut" is never made. Certainly the trans man who rapes has managed to keep his faculties.

Trans is a complex area. Many trans people suffer poor mental health and suicide. While I will (and have) referred to a bloke as a "she" because that's her choice, it is not something I will do as a blanket concession to appease those who are unwittingly (or purposefully) making mockery out of women's rights and rearranging the English manguage to boot.

Where bathrooms are concerned..I dream of a world where the most common is a single stall unisex...and then anyone use whatevers open, just wash your hands afterwards.

Why? Many men and women want to go to toilets which are designed for them. I dream of a world where grown-ups don't act like children, and people don't have to have their rights shat upon by intolerant bigots, as is happening time and time again by the "trans lobby".

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: SaturnFX
The debate is should a trans person be identified as their gendered term (aka: woman).I think sure...but there should be caveats. trans means transitioning from one gender to another, so effort needs to be made. Doing the best they can to alter their body and transition as convincingly as possible before pronouns and such is even respected.

Um, you mentioned "caveats". The fanatical trans movement does not believe in such whimsical flexibility. Trans means different things to different people, including just dressing up to look like someone of the opposite sex, so it does not necessarily mean someone is actually going through a drug and surgical process. In fact, most "trans" people don't go down the road of surgery, so the decisive "cut" is never made. Certainly the trans man who rapes has managed to keep his faculties.

Trans is a complex area. Many trans people suffer poor mental health and suicide. While I will (and have) referred to a bloke as a "she" because that's her choice, it is not something I will do as a blanket concession to appease those who are unwittingly (or purposefully) making mockery out of women's rights and rearranging the English manguage to boot.

Where bathrooms are concerned..I dream of a world where the most common is a single stall unisex...and then anyone use whatevers open, just wash your hands afterwards.

Why? Many men and women want to go to toilets which are designed for them. I dream of a world where grown-ups don't act like children, and people don't have to have their rights shat upon by intolerant bigots, as is happening time and time again by the "trans lobby".

Well, in regards to the varied levels of trans, again, effort needs to be made
there is a difference between transgender (sufferers of gender dysphoria that is deciding to transition) vs a drag queen who is mostly just playing dressup but has no actual desire to become the opposite gender.

I'll use the whole she/her/woman stuff when they look and act like a woman.

Bathrooms. Why do you want a specific mans bathroom vs a personal unisex stall? Kinda weird. most people are at best uncomfortable with the rows of urinals side by side. Only ones that seem to like them are pervs who want to catch glimpses of their neighbor.

I go to a bar that has only unisex stalls and outside of the initial newcomers looking for the M or F toilet and realizing its unisex (yep, one line for all) I have never heard people griping about the setup.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
Bathrooms. Why do you want a specific mans bathroom vs a personal unisex stall? Kinda weird. most people are at best uncomfortable with the rows of urinals side by side. Only ones that seem to like them are pervs who want to catch glimpses of their neighbor.

I go to a bar that has only unisex stalls and outside of the initial newcomers looking for the M or F toilet and realizing its unisex (yep, one line for all) I have never heard people griping about the setup.

? Sort of drifting here, would'nt you say. If unisex are OK then no reason for the guy who thinks he's a woman to go into the male toilets, eh? Why should they be so desperate to get into the women's loos?

originally posted by: paraphi
Sort of drifting here, would'nt you say. If unisex are OK then no reason for the guy who thinks he's a woman to go into the male toilets, eh? Why should they be so desperate to get into the women's loos?

Honest question
You are standing at a urinal
this person stands next to you at the next urinal over

your thoughts and feelings on the matter?

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: paraphi
Sort of drifting here, would'nt you say. If unisex are OK then no reason for the guy who thinks he's a woman to go into the male toilets, eh? Why should they be so desperate to get into the women's loos?

Honest question
You are standing at a urinal
this person stands next to you at the next urinal over

your thoughts and feelings on the matter?

if that person has XX chromosomes they are A BIOLOGICAL MALE (sex / gender)

It does not matter what "he" thinks he is, how "he" has changed "his" outward appearance or how "society" "defines" him.

stick a needle in the arm, take a sample, send it to a lab and ask its GENDER/SEX... .it will come back MALE.

end of story

you keep claiming its us that are "changing definitions" or not accepting definitions...

but ITS YOU that wont

in fact if you want to play the "gender definition game... to be FACTUAL AND HONEST
your CORRECT word would be

"living / identify " AS (KEY WORD AS) A female.

not they are a female

that is BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE

BTW gender/sex for the HUMAN SPECIES is ONLY MALE / FEMALE determined by chromosomes .

you can NEVER BE A WOMAN IF YOU WERE A MAN or vice versa

scrounger

originally posted by: scrounger

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: paraphi
Sort of drifting here, would'nt you say. If unisex are OK then no reason for the guy who thinks he's a woman to go into the male toilets, eh? Why should they be so desperate to get into the women's loos?

Honest question
You are standing at a urinal
this person stands next to you at the next urinal over

your thoughts and feelings on the matter?

if that person has XX chromosomes they are A BIOLOGICAL MALE (sex / gender)

It does not matter what "he" thinks he is, how "he" has changed "his" outward appearance or how "society" "defines" him.

stick a needle in the arm, take a sample, send it to a lab and ask its GENDER/SEX... .it will come back MALE.

end of story

you keep claiming its us that are "changing definitions" or not accepting definitions...

but ITS YOU that wont

in fact if you want to play the "gender definition game... to be FACTUAL AND HONEST
your CORRECT word would be

"living / identify " AS (KEY WORD AS) A female.

not they are a female

that is BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE

BTW gender/sex for the HUMAN SPECIES is ONLY MALE / FEMALE determined by chromosomes .

you can NEVER BE A WOMAN IF YOU WERE A MAN or vice versa

scrounger

sure bro

GENDER: noun.
either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

reality is going to take a lot more caps locks from you.

a reply to: SaturnFX

you keep posting a definition that refers to what SOCIETY assigns as TRAITS of male and female
along with how they view those traits.

the cold hard truths are this

1. homo sapiens have ONLY TWO BIOLOGICAL SEXES/GENDERS... male/female
2. your SEX/GENDER is determined at birth by CHROMOSOMES...
XX is female
XY is male

3. YOU CANNOT CHANGE the gender/sex your chromosomes have set.

lastly the cold and hardest truth is this

it doesnt matter what you look like, how you alter yourself, how you identify or what definition of gender/sex you try to use

you will never be any other gender that what your chromosomes have set.

in the case of the pic you keep showing..

that person WILL NEVER BE a female

you and the transgender movement are mad because not only does basic biology wont change to meet what you want, but neither will people accept (unlike transgender) a LIE

I again ask you to show me one person that changed from XX to XY (or vice versa)..
if you cant.. all you can say is someone LOOKS LIKE/ LIVING LIKE (pick a sex/gender).... but is not in biology.

scrounger

originally posted by: SaturnFX
Honest question
You are standing at a urinal
this person stands next to you at the next urinal over
your thoughts and feelings on the matter?

My immediate feeling is you seem to be fixated on urinals, but hey - it takes all sorts.

To your point. If he's standing at a urinal in a men's loo, but has managed to make himself look like an attractive woman, then that's his affair. If he went into the female loos then that's a problem because he is intruding on space which is reserved for women and he's not a woman.

The question should be whether women would be happy for him to be in the male loos. The answer is “no”. Just because he’s managed to make himself look like a stereotyped attractive woman does not escape the fact he’s a man. Many men could lather on make-up, stick on a frock and wig, and could pass for a woman if not looked at too closely; it’s called transvestitism, if that word has not been outlawed as being offensive in some way.

If he had transitioned then I think that would be acceptable, but fully transitioned men/women are few and far between.

originally posted by: scrounger
a reply to: SaturnFX

you keep posting a definition that refers to what SOCIETY assigns as TRAITS of male and female
along with how they view those traits.

the cold hard truths are this

1. homo sapiens have ONLY TWO BIOLOGICAL SEXES/GENDERS... male/female
2. your SEX/GENDER is determined at birth by CHROMOSOMES...
XX is female
XY is male

3. YOU CANNOT CHANGE the gender/sex your chromosomes have set.

lastly the cold and hardest truth is this

it doesnt matter what you look like, how you alter yourself, how you identify or what definition of gender/sex you try to use

you will never be any other gender that what your chromosomes have set.

in the case of the pic you keep showing..

that person WILL NEVER BE a female

you and the transgender movement are mad because not only does basic biology wont change to meet what you want, but neither will people accept (unlike transgender) a LIE

I again ask you to show me one person that changed from XX to XY (or vice versa)..
if you cant.. all you can say is someone LOOKS LIKE/ LIVING LIKE (pick a sex/gender).... but is not in biology.

scrounger

Discussion is about gender, not biological sex
I'll take the dictionarys definition over some random anon guy on the internet. thanks for playing.

originally posted by: paraphi
If he had transitioned then I think that would be acceptable,

Bingo
And now you are at odds with scrounger

So, what defines transition then. boob job and hormones? genital surgery? hair removal?
What about a person who in every way looks like Mike the lumberjack but had his unit cut off...is that then a woman (enough for the toilet privilege in this case).

I would rather Mike the lumberjack stick to the mens room (use a stall) and have the person in the pic go into the womans stall simply because gender is largely about outward appearance from a society standpoint.

short of having a genital checker at the bathroom doors, you wouldn't know the difference anyhow.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
And now you are at odds with scrounger

This is not a competition. I am not ad odds with scrounger.

I think that there are very few people who have taken the irreversible decision to fully transition. However, while they can have as much surgery as it takes, and a life on drugs, they are not able to change their biology. A man who fully transitions to a woman is still biologically a male. I recognise that they can be accepted as a woman because these are edge cases, but do not accept that they are women biologically.

My point was that if someone goes that far then they have demonstrated their inclination to be another sex. If you stick a blouse on and say "I'm a woman" then you are most certainly not and should not be allowed to benefit from pretending to be so.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: SaturnFX
And now you are at odds with scrounger

This is not a competition. I am not ad odds with scrounger.

I think that there are very few people who have taken the irreversible decision to fully transition. However, while they can have as much surgery as it takes, and a life on drugs, they are not able to change their biology. A man who fully transitions to a woman is still biologically a male. I recognise that they can be accepted as a woman because these are edge cases, but do not accept that they are women biologically.

My point was that if someone goes that far then they have demonstrated their inclination to be another sex. If you stick a blouse on and say "I'm a woman" then you are most certainly not and should not be allowed to benefit from pretending to be so.

Biologically I agree with you
The trans M2F person I posted in the picture should use the womans restroom, but see a doctor who see's male clients for any biological issues
Bearded guy in dress...go to mens room..and use a stall ya weirdo.

Lots of trans folks don't take the final step not just for uncertainty, but because the medical ability is still maturing and it is cost prohibitive for many...so its not just a situation of being unsure. They could be 100% sure but just not able to.
Its a odd world
Today is non-binary day...a day I totally dismiss as fantasyland. there are only 2 sexes set in stone based on biology. There are also only 2 genders..and this is where the spectrum lies