how does gun manufacturing work?

tl;dr: how is gun manufacturing done, from maker to dealer?

as ive posted before, i just got a fd12 semi-auto bullpup shotgun.

great weapon, but the barrel is only 18.5". many of you wrote that a barrel that short really isnt good for much except short range combat.

well, i took that advice to heart (thank you!) and started looking for a barrel extension. those are very hard to find, btw. what i knew at the time was that it would need to be a choke extension (obvs), but i didnt know the type of thread pattern, so i emailed "black aces tactical" whos name is all over the gun, even though it came with a brochure for "huntgroup international". they didnt get back to me because they were swamped. all good, because i have a mossberg 535 and the choke from it fit the fd12, so i figured that was the right thread style.

i know that extensions are made because the "hurricane" model comes with one. so after many google searches i found lockhart tactical and they had one for sale. i asked it it would fit and they said yes. so i bought one, and guess what? doesnt fit. completely different from the mossberg/blackaces chokes that i had. lockhart said he would talk to his distributor to figure out what went wrong.

lockhart got back to me and said that it fit all canadian models and that because i was in america it might have a different thread. "weird", i thought, "both canadian and american guns come from the same place, "huntgroup", so other than accessories, colors, and barrel length, how much can be different?" oddly, i got an answer from blackaces about the thread pattern. they said the benelli mobile choke was the pattern. so i google that, and it was completely wrong! mossberg accu choke and benelli mobile choke are very different. i relayed this to lockhart and he replied that all he had was the mobile choke, and that he installed them all the time.

so the final question is how can lockhart and blackaces say one thing, yet the weapon in my hands be something completely different? did huntgroup just change threads for blackaces and not tell them? did blackaces order accu choke pattern and forget? how does the maker to dealer system work in guns?

a reply to: stormson

Some guns are made in other countries, the importer is usually U.S. Company. If "International" is in the name, that's a give-away. Your shotgun may be made in Turkey.

Established in 1992, Hunt Group Arms is one of the most well known firearms manufacturer in Turkey. Having started to export activities in the year 2008, by Hunt Group International Arms & Security C

www.turkishexporter.net/hunt-group-ltd

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: stormson

Some guns are made in other countries, the importer is usually U.S. Company. If "International" is in the name, that's a give-away. Your shotgun may be made in Turkey.

Established in 1992, Hunt Group Arms is one of the most well known firearms manufacturer in Turkey. Having started to export activities in the year 2008, by Hunt Group International Arms & Security C

www.turkishexporter.net/hunt-group-ltd

im pretty sure huntgroup in turkey is the source, as ive seen the same gun, fd12, with different logos from different places, but im trying to figure out where the thread change came in.

at first i figured it was basically huntgroup had x model of base gun with y number of accessories. then black aces said we'll take a, b, c models and slap our name on it for resale. a thread change from one popular style to another, with the inherent manufacturing change, seems like a weird ask. especially when the asker doesnt know about the change.

both blackaces and lockhart say its the benelli system, yet the gun itself is the accu choke system. i just find it weird.

a reply to: stormson

It's basically the same reason that I can buy a Chevy made for the European market and then buy a dash pad from the American market that doesn't fit. Cars, like guns, are unique to the country they are made for. Both are heavily regulated; what may be normal and expected here might be illegal there and vice versa.

It does create a hassle when trying to accessorize or repair. There are a lot of car parts sources as well, so there are usually parts to be had that were intended for whatever country one is in; with guns, that's not such a sure thing. The market for accessories and parts is much, much smaller.

It's also one reason guns are so expensive: each one is a precision instrument capable of delivering a projectile within something like +/-0.001 degrees of accuracy, which means special attention is paid to each one as it is made.

TheRedneck

I have a KSG that is an 18.5 inch barrel and it is supposed to be accurate to around 200 yards with slugs depending on sights and shooter. Some companies offer barrel extensions but that is for barrel restrictions at shooting ranges.

If you are talking about shot spread, then the chokes should adjust that for you. The shorter barrel does loose some power on the high power shells but I shoot mini shells, 1 ¾ inch, so that doesn’t matter. The mini shells have the advantage of less recoil so the next shot is easier to take and the gun holds more of them. The mini shells have a little less projectile mass but the energy of the projectile is the same or similar to the 2 ¾ shells.

It sounds like your problem comes from another company making the actual barrels other than the gun maker. Sometimes mistakes are made between those companies and the machinist that made your barrel just made a mistake and the inspectors for that company and the gun company did not catch it. It could also be that that particular barrel was made for another market and it somehow got mixed up with a shipment to the wrong country.

I have ran into this problem several times having custom industrial parts made by one company and they had another company make the part.

I hope you get it worked out.

I could write a lengthy post, but I think you'll find this video informative.

This video shows the process of the manufacturing of Barrett firearms located next to where I grew up in Christiana, TN.



Also fwiw I don't think an 18.5 length barrel is going to restrict you to "short range" with a shotgun. Use slugs and practice.

I shared a video of Hickok45 shooting a Benelli shotgun with an 18.5 length barrel and he shows that you can reliably hit a target that's not "short range."



Skip to 4:30 to see what I'm talking about.

Unless you're going to hunt - birds - there's not much sense in a longer barrel. Slug guns are rifled barrels & have max rage. If you DO want that extra range for scatter loads, best get a 3 or 3-1/2 inch magnum and a 26-32 inch barrel.
12GA is a very versatile tool but really - it's all about selecting the right munitions for the job.
As for me, I sure wish they had that blackpowder 12GA pistol in a modern cartridge like 1-1/2 shortys!

ganjoa

A short barrel doesn't mean it won't pattern tight with the right choke.See if you can locate a extra full turkey choke.Indian Creek,Carlson's, and Jebs are good places to start.Shells can make a huge difference too,TSS loads are awesome.

a reply to: TheRedneck

really nice breakdown.

thanks!

originally posted by: AutomateThis1
I could write a lengthy post, but I think you'll find this video informative.

This video shows the process of the manufacturing of Barrett firearms located next to where I grew up in Christiana, TN.

Also fwiw I don't think an 18.5 length barrel is going to restrict you to "short range" with a shotgun. Use slugs and practice.

I shared a video of Hickok45 shooting a Benelli shotgun with an 18.5 length barrel and he shows that you can reliably hit a target that's not "short range."

Skip to 4:30 to see what I'm talking about.

both great vids!

really answered some questions, thanks!

a reply to: stormson

No problem. Glad I could help. It's not so surprising how it can be so hard to get concrete advice in a world full of opinions. That's why I try and find videos of experienced people handling firearms and then try and get my hands on one while making my own determinations about the pros and cons of a gun.

Now, to be completely honest a gun is a gun. Some are better made, but when it comes down to actually using one it's the person's own abilities that really matter.

I've seen people drive round on top of round using firearms that most people wouldn't give a second thought to.

So, my advice is learn what a good shooting stance is, how to properly grip different guns, and then go find you a gun that feels good. Then, practice, practice, practice, and then practice some more.

While you're at it. Learn how to reload, because reloading can reduce the costs of ammunition. You'll also have direct control over how each round is loaded so each round will perform in a manner similar as you loaded the last one.

Sometimes with mass produced ammo they can be a little off.

And regardless of what firearm you get, get another one in 22 in pistol/rifle or 410 or 28 gauge in shotgun. You'll be able to focus more on proper shooting technique without getting all anxious about the recoil. Then, you could work your way up to larger calibers.

I'd also advise against getting polymer frame pistols. They're not bad by any means with proper training, but the reason why I don't like them is because the only thing that's metal is the slide, barrel, and the small internals. The weight distribution is all on top making it top heavy so the felt recoil is greater.

That's why I always recommend all steel construction or aluminum framed pistols. With a rifle it's not that big of a deal. Rifles are long enough and have enough to be able to really brace it against your body.

Also with ammo don't get ahead of yourself and go for the +P or +P+ rounds. I'd recommend going with the subsonic rounds. They won't cause as much felt recoil, and they are great for suppressors.

Many people will argue that they aren't as powerful as a regular pressured round or +P or +P+, but a bullet is a bullet, and you want to be able to shoot well before you go using handcannons.

Just my 2¢

a reply to: AutomateThis1

Gotta disagree here on polymer framed pistols. The balance really isn't off unless you're out on the far end of the spectrum like my Glock 26 with g17 slide and barrel. And even that is very manageable by people who don't shoot regularly.

A much more important consideration with pistols is getting one that fits your hand and feels right to you. For whatever reason pistols are far from one size fits all especially at the very beginning.

Once you're well practiced though you'll be able to stay well on target at 10-15 yards even when bouncing every two shots between different pistols.

One of the advantages of getting old is I can jump directly between my g26 with g17 slide, to my Ruger LCP, to my s&w shield, to my full size Ruger security six 357, to my Jericho 941, to my para p13, and finishing up with my g19 while leaving one ragged hole about center sternum on the target.

Rifles otoh are far more one size fits all. The only advice I'd give there is to not listen to the Elmer fudd types that believe everyone should learn on an iron sights single shot .22!

Do NOT be afraid to learn on an AR15 with an optic!

There's a very good reason why the US military essentially doesn't issue ANYONE a rifle or carbine without an optic now!

I recently built another AR and slapped a $129 primary arms 1-4x low power variable optic first focal plane with a very simple reticle.

Even in the hands of my very gun shy mother, I had her on target and making very solid groups at 100 yards in under 10 rounds.

This is with a gun and optic combo that would have been well under $550 a year ago.

a reply to: roguetechie

I hear your opinion, and I respect it.

a reply to: roguetechie

I respectfully disagree in regards to learning.

The military doesn't issue anything but optics because that is all they will use. In real life you may encounter a variety of weapons with a variety of sights. I recommend starting with standard sights and working up to more exotic technology. There is no alternative to experience.

Tech is important. But technology is meaningless without technique. And that is gained from experience.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

I started shooting with 9mm .40, .45, 7.62, and 5.56.

A read that a .22 can help with figuring out where you're going wrong. So, I went out and bought a .22 rifle and pistol, and got to work. It was also great that the ammo was way cheaper. My shooting was pretty good before hand, but after shooting 22 and checking my handling I noted that I was actually getting better.

I still go out and shoot 22.

Technique is indeed more important than technology. It's ridiculous how people will still buy into BS.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Yes I know that the conventional "wisdom" states that you should learn on iron sights first.

The conventional wisdom is dead wrong though, the military has done studies on this and learning on optics THEN learning irons makes for better shooters pretty much every time.

Thing is, when you're first learning to shoot you are swamped with things you need to pay attention to simultaneously. Having people learn on a gun with sighted in optic takes several of those simultaneous things off your plate allowing you to focus on the other fundamentals.

People who learn on scoped or red dot/Holo equipped guns get to proficiency quicker and take to irons better after that.

Also, it's not like optics are uncommon or expensive anymore.

Frankly, you can buy $129 primary arms 1-4x lpvo now that blows all but the very best of optics from the 90's away.

Also, you can buy dry fire trainers that use smart phones or tablets and a laser cartridge insert for less than that $129 PA 1-4 which can let you get in thousands of rounds of basic practice without paying for a single round of ammunition.

I hate to say it but the future is now old man!

Us old guys gotta keep up, we also need to keep in mind that most of the conventional wisdom we came up with was to put it charitably laughably bad fudd lore.

There's actually been a massive amount of study put into all the things we thought we knew in the last 20 years and it turns out we were wrong about most of it.

a reply to: AutomateThis1

There's a certain amount of truth to technology not being able to replace technique, but as with almost anything people take this too far and start thinking that technique alone can get you ahead of technology.

It can't.

There's also some other factors involved which very much affect the balance between technology and technique that most gun people would have no reason to know is a factor.

One extremely good example of this is the fact that your average fighting age male from the world war 1 era could with the naked eye pick out a standing man from 1000-1200 yards. That number has dropped... MASSIVELY. This presents a problem for us modern fighting age males since you have to be able to see the target to hit the target. Lucky for us the technology that fudds swear can't replace technique can give you back some of the ability to see and identify the target that your great great grandpa had.

There's also the fact that 22 ammo isn't cheap anymore and for many people just getting to a place where they can shoot is either not cheap or not easy.

Luckily for all of us, technology has stepped in and provided us another path. Things like laser hit, I target pro, and g-sight offer alternative paths to getting your fundamentals down at reasonable prices and in the comfort of your own home.

As I said before, optics are also almost hilariously cheap for insanely good stuff now.

And finally, to reiterate, studies have been done and they show that the whole learn on irons before going to optics thing is exactly backwards.

You can make much better shooters by starting them on optics and transferring them to irons when they've reached a solid base of proficiency.

I'm trying not to be harsh here but these pernicious, utterly laughable, and self defeating pieces of "conventional wisdom" and the people who push it refuse to just let these stupid and counterproductive myths go.

You're right, man. If your gun is from another country, no wonder you have a hard time finding a barrel extension. I ran into a similar situation recently, too.

You're right, man. If your gun is from another country, no wonder you have a hard time finding a barrel extension. I ran into a similar situation recently, too. I have a gun with a 5" full-size barrel, and it took me a very long time to find a Holster for it. You can check out the best sig p210 holsters here. In any case, you have to go to the experts, and they will help you find what you need. And thank god everything is on the internet. Peace to all, take care of yourself and your loved ones!