Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

MONO


Neutron is again into off-topic.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

Is this a fallacy?

God luck “proving” god. When you can volunteer to help food banks, visit prisons, or help rebuilt communities by working with a group like Samaritan’s Purse. Prove god In endless debate with no resolution. Or go be the hands and feet of God while building the body of God.

Choice is yours.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: Pachomius

Is this a fallacy?

God luck “proving” god. When you can volunteer to help food banks, visit prisons, or help rebuilt communities by working with a group like Samaritan’s Purse. Prove god In endless debate with no resolution. Or go be the hands and feet of God while building the body of God.

Choice is yours.

I look at theological discussion as the brain of God. It's not actively doing anything like arms and legs, but it is intellectually demonstrating God's existence for those who have somehow lost recognition of the Intelligence involved in the natural world.

MONO



Time passes so fast, I must remind everyone about my exposition for the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, see below, my message posted on Aug, 9 2020 @ 07:13 AM (eight hours in advance of Greenwich).


And please, everyone, stick to the OP of my thread, on "Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Pachomius
.

Dear everyone, here is my exposition proving from evidence the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

.

1. You and I and he she it, we all exist, do you accept that?

2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?

3. Our parents came from their parents, do you accept that?

4. We all humans make up the human race, can you accept that?

5. The human race had a beginning in the universe, can you accept that?

6. Scientists tell us the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago, can you accept that?

7. There has been the domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, can you accept that?

8. In that domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, there has got to be an entity, which created or caused the coming to the beginning of the existence of the universe, can you accept that?

9. Evidence is anything existing which leads man to ascertain the existence of another thing, can you accept?

10. Wherefore, man and the universe and everything with a beginning are the evidence to the existence of an entity, which created or caused them to come to existence, can you accept that?

11. And therefore we can call that entity in concept and in name, as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, can you accept that?

12. If you cannot or will not accept that God exists, are you not then either irrational or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God?

.


Dear everyone, please point out what Number 1 to 12 you have difficulties with, okay?

.

.

a reply to: Pachomius

Off topic?

Supposedly your god is indifferent to worship? Indifferent to good or evil? If your god created the universe, If your god doesn’t care about what people believe, then why care if there is a god or not? In your god doesn’t even care how people behave. Or if they exist at all?

I think your god didn’t create humanity at all. If your god created humanity, your god wouldn’t be so indifferent.

Thank you for helping debunk your god.

Xtro, You say:
"What is an existence with no time...where everything can be infinite and nothing all at once... Explain to me a singularity...Explain to me something outside of our universe...you can't."

.


No need to explain further than the nose on your face, if you are intelligent.

The nose on your face exists, therefore God exists, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

Start thinking on first, You and I we exist, do you accept that?


NB
Here come the atheists saying that I am into circular reasoning, but they don't know what is circular reasoning; if you ask them, they will get lost altogether - going around and around inside their brain, and not going outside their brain, to appreciate the wonders of babies and roses in the neighborhood.

.




.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Pachomius

7. There has been the domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, can you accept that?

8. In that domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, there has got to be an entity, which created or caused the coming to the beginning of the existence of the universe, can you accept that?

What is an existence with no time...where everything can be infinite and nothing all at once... Explain to me a singularity...Explain to me something outside of our universe...you can't.

MONO



Dear Xtro, I like to challenge you on how you will solve the conundrum of which comes first, the chicken or the egg.

Next, you say God is incomprehensible, but do you know what it is for our mind to comprehend something?

Those are two challenges from yours truly, from one Pachomius, author of the present thread, and you will answer me and let readers see your brain to be working, if you practice honest intelligent productive thinking, okay?

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance

We need God simply because He's there.

Where?

We get into the Chicken or the egg scenario when you throw God into the mix. Why do we need intelligent design at all.

Its an argument that can not be solved. BTW God would be incomprehensible...as in maybe not even life or intelligence as we know it and not something that cares about our morals...

MONO



I am taking about God in the three monotheistic faiths of Christianity, Islam, Judaism.

They have this common generic concept of God, namely:

"God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning."

Let us all concentrate on this God, and not if I may, on other god(s) because these are already fossils of the distant past, besides are there any peoples today who discuss their existence and operations? Perhaps folks without education in honest intelligent productive thinking, who pray to their own themselves dressed up little image-statue deities, for all kinds of favors, like getting rich quick or some cure from sicknesses?

.

originally posted by: LightAssassin
a reply to: Pachomius

Are we talking Judeo-christian God?
Hindu Gods?
Babylonian Gods?
Mayan Gods?
Zoroastrian God?

I mean, from an intellectual perspective, surely the above answers the question?

.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Zactlyish !

We believe, in the things we invent : like words, in this case, and perhaps other things ?

GRIGG, RAY (1995)
The Tao that can be named
is not the nameless Tao.
The Tao that can be known
is not the unknowable Tao.
Nameless and unknowable.
the Tao has been from the very beginning.
It is the wisdom of all that is,
and the way of the Great Mother.
With desire,
the Tao is hidden.
Without desire,
the Tao is apparent.
The Tao and the Great Mother
arose from the same dark source.
Their names are different,
but they are inseperable.
Together they are an endless wonder,
And the boundless mystery
of everything's oneness.

first you have to define what you mean by god. then you have to define what you would accept as proof.

MONO



Dear pthena, you have this phrase in your message reproduced below, namely: "belief is irrational."


If I may, please mention a belief in the three monotheistic faiths: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, that is irrational.


I like very to know from you what is rational and what is irrational.

.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Pachomius

Please be specific, what precisely don't you accept in my step No. 12:

"12. (a) If you cannot or will not accept that God exists, (b) are you not then either irrational (c) or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God?"


There are three clauses, pinpoint first just one clause you don't accept and why.

There is only the one condition and then two possible conclusions.

(b) implies irrationality to not believing, whereas belief is irrational in my opinion.
(c) "dishonestly stubborn" implies that there is some well established, or even imposed by authority, reality being rejected. There really isn't anything obviously real about your conceptual god. And if there is some authority imposing this concept upon people, that authority itself has not been authoritatively recognized universally.

Now the Pythagoreans established the existence of irrational numbers and thought that they should keep the knowledge of irrationality their own secret, like they alone should be afforded irrationality in belief and practice. But good people didn't need their secrets, because in real life people can and do experience the irrational every day.

Edit to add:

I just realized that my response to (b) may be mistaken as bigotry. Just to be clear: believers and unbelievers alike can enjoy the benefits of irrationality, for Manuela is no respecter of persons.

That last sentence I wrote!!! I feel ... I feel ... not special for knowing Manuela.
Oh well, you know what they say:
Via con Dios.

a reply to: cooperton

I look at theological discussion as the brain of God.

Is that like a shared tulpa? There's another term you used also in that thread where I wrote about caterpillars and wasps. I'll try to find that.

In the meantime, I like this:

for those who have somehow lost recognition of the Intelligence involved in the natural world.

Weird. It's actually in this thread. This thread has been going on for a long time. Page 13

MONO



Dear Tzar, you tell me:

"Repeating yourself doesn't change the fact you offered an assumption without compelling evidence. Just the same ontological BS."


Please tell me what you are referring to as an assumption from me etc., otherwise I have to say that you are even more full of ontological BS.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Pachomius
MONO


The universe that has a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago definitely and certainly has been brought into existence by an entity in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, which is called God.


See my exposition on God as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.:

posted Pachomius on Aug, 9 2020 @ 07:13 AM

.

Dear everyone, here is my exposition proving from evidence the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

.

1. You and I and he she it, we all exist, do you accept that?

2. You and I and he she it, we came from our parents, do you accept that?

3. Our parents came from their parents, do you accept that?

4. We all humans make up the human race, can you accept that?

5. The human race had a beginning in the universe, can you accept that?

6. Scientists tell us the universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago, can you accept that?

7. There has been the domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, can you accept that?

8. In that domain of existence prior to the beginning of the universe, there has got to be an entity, which created or caused the coming to the beginning of the existence of the universe, can you accept that?

9. Evidence is anything existing which leads man to ascertain the existence of another thing, can you accept?

10. Wherefore, man and the universe and everything with a beginning are the evidence to the existence of an entity, which created or caused them to come to existence, can you accept that?

11. And therefore we can call that entity in concept and in name, as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, can you accept that?

12. If you cannot or will not accept that God exists, are you not then either irrational or dishonestly stubborn against the existence of God?

.


Dear everyone, please point out what Number 1 to 12 you have difficulties with, okay?

.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Pachomius

The assumption that a universe can only be caused by the entity you call god, seems to be a matter of much debate. There doesnt seem to be any form of footprint or any substantial trace of this creature or any other life at all.

Repeating yourself doesn't change the fact you offered an assumption without compelling evidence. Just the same ontological BS.

originally posted by: Pachomius


Tell me then, dear Xtro, who is in charge of your nose that it does not fall off your face uncertainly?

It could....it will one day...

And where is this entity, in or not in our universe?

What entity? Why must there be an entity?

You are bringing in universe(s) outside of our universe, the one and only one we have access to and live in.

What you are into is plain fiction, of no worth except fantastic nonsense or amusement for unthinking kids who know nothing of critical thinking, i.e. honest intelligent productive thinking.

Fiction of what? I said it is impossible to know what is outside of our universe, we can speculate, but that is about it. But here we have a God that created our universe, created everything, maybe an infinite number of universes...that would make him outside of our universe, and so something we can not know, but some of you know him well...congrats.

originally posted by: Pachomius

The nose on your face exists, therefore God exists, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.

Why not gods?

originally posted by: Pachomius

Dear Xtro, I like to challenge you on how you will solve the conundrum of which comes first, the chicken or the egg.

Next, you say God is incomprehensible, but do you know what it is for our mind to comprehend something?

Those are two challenges from yours truly, from one Pachomius, author of the present thread, and you will answer me and let readers see your brain to be working, if you practice honest intelligent productive thinking, okay?

I solve it by saying our universe has a start and will have an end... Time exists here...what about whatever is outside our universe that never had a start or end, no time, so the chicken and egg are moot.

I'm not arguing against God and I said a number of times you can't because he is outside our universe, for that exact same reason you can't argue for God either. To say he is as real as the nose on your face doesn't actually make him real..LOL

originally posted by: Pachomius
...

"God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning."
...

That is intellectual dishonesty "God in concept is the human explanation for everything unknown with enough gravity to leave an impression on the human mind"
before we invented aliens.

Did you explain what you mean with "creator cause"? Because it feels a bit like an oxymoron. A cause is something that sets a reaction in motion from inside a system. A creator makes something without being part of what he creates. That doesn't go together.

We don't know if the universe actually had a beginning, that's a theory but not really one that can be considered fact. Because we can't see that far back in the cosmos.
You're trying to take an unprovable claim as proof and definition for something that's neither to be proven nor to be disproven.

And that's not really doing anything than showing you're an unwise fool.

MONO



Well, I have gone through all the posts here in my thread for the last five or six pages, thanks a lot to you all, for you inputs in this my thread.


There are several off-topic posts, foremost from Neutron, Dear Neutron, we are not at least not me, into your thoughts based on your Bible reading, but based on honest intelligent productive thinking, independent of your Bible reading.


Tell you what, dear Neutron, when you come across some information in your Bible, that to you is grounded on facts, truths, logic, and the history of the best ideas from mankind, and it has to do with the concept of God, namely, as creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning, bring it up here in my thread, without any reference to your reading of your Bible, though.

And I will discuss it with you, okay?


For everyone else, the same pleading, abstain from off-topic posting.


Here is again the subject of my thread:

"Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not."


And here is the link to the OP:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


.

a reply to: Pachomius

If I may, please mention a belief in the three monotheistic faiths: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, that is irrational.

I like very to know from you what is rational and what is irrational.

First off: You should include within the three monotheistic faiths a fourth, namely: Deism. Deism arose in a post-Christian European environment. The concept of a creator came from the three listed monotheisms. It was an attempt to use rules of logic within a metaphysical framework to arrive at a rational definition of God aka The Prime Mover.

I would propose to you that you just may be a Deist.

In my own mind I make a metaphoric connection from deist explanation of god with rational; and from normal religion explanation of God to the irrational.

The irrational has miracles, the direct action of a deity, an intervention. The rational has no such thing.

I don't know which religious texts you may read, but The Old Testament and the New Testament are chock full of miracles. I've only read the Qur'an through once. As I recall, there aren't many miracles in it. Perhaps because Allah is a bit closer in time and in concept to the Deist ideal.

Here is one miracle in the Qur'an that I do remember:

Chapter (2) sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow)
Shakir:
Or the like of him (Uzair) who passed by a town, and it had fallen down upon its roofs; he said: When will Allah give it life after its death? So Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him to life. He said: How long have you tarried? He said: I have tarried a day, or a part of a day. Said He: Nay! you have tarried a hundred years; then look at your food and drink-- years have not passed over it; and look at your ass; and that We may make you a sign to men, and look at the bones, how We set them together, then clothed them with flesh; so when it became clear to him, he said: I know that Allah has power over all things.

Deism gets so caught up in determinism that the very idea of will and choice and doing things just because you feel like it is lost.

If it takes miracles for people to do things because they want to, then by all means let us be irrational and observe the miracles we live within.

Normal people, whether they call themselves religious or not, do not torment their minds over whether they can do something by their own volition or whether they have no say because everything is predetermined, by an event that happened 13 billion years ago.

a reply to: Pachomius

Please let us know when you have actual evidence of god. Not your circular logic that can be made to rationalize about anything.

And again....

Off topic?

Supposedly your god is indifferent to worship? Indifferent to good or evil? If your god created the universe, If your god doesn’t care about what people believe, then why care if there is a god or not? In your god doesn’t even care how people behave. Or if they exist at all?

I think your god didn’t create humanity at all. If your god created humanity, your god wouldn’t be so indifferent.

Thank you for helping debunk your god.

MONO



From Pachomius

" . . . I like very to know from you what is rational and what is irrational."

______________________________



Dear pthena:

Please produce from your stock knowledge and information, what is your definition of rational, and what is your definition of irrational, okay?

In less than 30 words each - and I beg to be dispensed from scouring your long message to find out.


.

.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Pachomius

If I may, please mention a belief in the three monotheistic faiths: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, that is irrational.

I like very to know from you what is rational and what is irrational.

First off: You should include within the three monotheistic faiths a fourth, namely: Deism. Deism arose in a post-Christian European environment. The concept of a creator came from the three listed monotheisms. It was an attempt to use rules of logic within a metaphysical framework to arrive at a rational definition of God aka The Prime Mover.

I would propose to you that you just may be a Deist.

In my own mind I make a metaphoric connection from deist explanation of god with rational; and from normal religion explanation of God to the irrational.

The irrational has miracles, the direct action of a deity, an intervention. The rational has no such thing.

I don't know which religious texts you may read, but The Old Testament and the New Testament are chock full of miracles. I've only read the Qur'an through once. As I recall, there aren't many miracles in it. Perhaps because Allah is a bit closer in time and in concept to the Deist ideal.

Here is one miracle in the Qur'an that I do remember:

Chapter (2) sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow)
Shakir:
Or the like of him (Uzair) who passed by a town, and it had fallen down upon its roofs; he said: When will Allah give it life after its death? So Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him to life. He said: How long have you tarried? He said: I have tarried a day, or a part of a day. Said He: Nay! you have tarried a hundred years; then look at your food and drink-- years have not passed over it; and look at your ass; and that We may make you a sign to men, and look at the bones, how We set them together, then clothed them with flesh; so when it became clear to him, he said: I know that Allah has power over all things.

Deism gets so caught up in determinism that the very idea of will and choice and doing things just because you feel like it is lost.

If it takes miracles for people to do things because they want to, then by all means let us be irrational and observe the miracles we live within.

Normal people, whether they call themselves religious or not, do not torment their minds over whether they can do something by their own volition or whether they have no say because everything is predetermined, by an event that happened 13 billion years ago.

.