Strange case of the Spanish Flu’s ending

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Willtell

Thank you... I've read/heard this before, and it's one of those things I keep telling myself I need to check into further and then never get to!

It's truly "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma."

I cannot even begin to guess what it could be. Actually, I could guess a zillion things, some more feasible than others of course! But I really don't know why this would be.

You know I was surprised when I researched this and now am very intrigued about it. I have bizarre theories or possibilities I alluded to regarding Providence being involved I won’t go into in-depth here (another forum maybe) but without a doubt, this Spanish Flu and COVID 19 has very mysterious elements to it that we may never solve “scientifically.”

Let's just hope whether scientifically or mysteriously it ends soon!

a reply to: Willtell

I have bizarre theories or possibilities I alluded to regarding Providence being involved I won’t go into in-depth here (another forum maybe)...

Ooooh!!! Me too!!!

I want to see that OP. If you write it, I'll be there. And if I'm not, then poke me with a PM! I'd like to see and be part of such a discussion.

Not everything can be quantified in a scientific manner and this is the natural order of things... chaos is part of the natural order.

Some interesting reading

Comets and Contagion : Evolution and Diseases From Space
journalofcosmology.com...

Might explain it?

originally posted by: Willtell
Simply, to this day, THEY DON’T KNOW HOW THE SPANISH FLU ENDED!

No scientific certainty on how and why it ended.

Theories abound, one being the FLU started to be treated better through experience but this is refuted.

Hah! Of course they would try to take credit for it, when it is obvious they had nothing to do with it.

Another interesting thing Is that just what we are going through now is almost the same issues as there were in 1918: Social distancing, massive quarantines, massive shutdowns, and the studies concluded the social distancing and shutting down society is the best way to deal with the problem.

What studies? I'd love to read some actual studies on this.

a reply to: tanstaafl

What studies? I'd love to read some actual studies on this.

What 2 new studies teach us about our socially distant future
New research shows social distancing works — and why we must relax it gradually.

There is something challenging to communicate in coronavirus reporting: Nearly 41,000 people have died from Covid-19 in the United States (and many more will die), and those deaths have come despite the unprecedented social distancing measures being taken across the country. Without them, the loss of life would surely be higher.

Unless or until scientists have data to back it up, though, the impact of social distancing is as much hypothesis and intuition as scientific fact. Luckily, a new study out of Hong Kong indicates that the precautious taken there — similar to those taken in the US, like closed schools, travel restrictions, mask-wearing, and general distancing — have had a measurable effect on the spread of Covid-19 and the flu. That should give people confidence that social distancing is working, even with its painful economic toll.

link

It's not nuclear science that if you seclude yourself from people you will likely not get the virus. Of course, if this is a curse from God or some other weird possibility and not really a contagious disease then anything is possible.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Willtell

I have bizarre theories or possibilities I alluded to regarding Providence being involved I won’t go into in-depth here (another forum maybe)...

Ooooh!!! Me too!!!

I want to see that OP. If you write it, I'll be there. And if I'm not, then poke me with a PM! I'd like to see and be part of such a discussion.

Not everything can be quantified in a scientific manner and this is the natural order of things... chaos is part of the natural order.

I agree with that. Often conventional wisdom is not wisdom. As for that hypothetical thread, it's not too exotic just analyzing the possibility this is an Alien, Universal Intelligence or Karmic, or just God doing its thing.

We did have the Marian apparitions of 1917 appearing to the kids in Portugal and she warned humankind to chill out or else, then we had shortly after that the Great Spanish Flu epidemic, the subject of this OP.

Humans have done such harm since that time that if its karmic providence at work then it can have a field day determining why wrath should come down on us.

That OP would be very research-intensive( apocalyptic possibilities--Disraeli did an OP on that earlier) I’m not ready to do presently but if it happens you will be the first to know.

a reply to: Willtell

The problem with a narrow focus on a singular virus is that it *is* a much broader topic that is extraordinarily multi-faceted as well as long term (even generational).

Beyond that, I think there are some glaring holes in our fundamental understanding of the topic, exacerbated by some aspects that are only seen as tangential, at best.

Im also not sure when "social distancing" became completely synonymous with "lockdowns." The latter can result in the former though.

Also not sure when "economy" become completely synonymous with "money." Seems like some massive conflations that tend to be borne of ignorance, and strongly encouraged as well.

a reply to: Serdgiam

The lockdown to me has always been the most worrying aspect of this beyond the disease itself.
I am therefore firmly on the side of those who are advocating that if we do a lockdown like this everyone out of work should be paid at least 95 percent of their usual income.

I was again surprised when they said the Spanish Flu era also had massive lockdowns. So this stuff isn’t out of nowhere.

As for what we know, relative to the experts. Well, they should be respected but folks have to realize experts are NOT always right. Indeed, I’ve heard varying opinions from the so-called experts so their obviously not always right.

a reply to: Willtell

No pressure... but it would be cool if you do find the time and opportunity!

And thank you in advance for the heads up -- much appreciated

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: tanstaafl
"What studies? I'd love to read some actual studies on this."

What 2 new studies teach us about our socially distant future
New research shows social distancing works — and why we must relax it gradually.

No, your OP said there were studies from 1918 and the 1918 pandemic and the social distancing that was done then.

Those are the studies I'm interested in.

I have no interest in any modern day propaganda pieces trying to convince me we have to kill ourselves in order to be safe from the virus.

It's not nuclear science that if you seclude yourself from people you will likely not get the virus.

Sure, or you could just live your life, get the virus, let your immune system deal with it, and don't worry/be happy.

One more virus living in me in addition to the hundreds of TRILLIONS already living inside me is not anything for me to worry about.

a reply to: nerbot


I am so sorry about your friend.

Did you know that death from suicide stress directly caused by isolation, and the feeling of worthlessness and helplessness that stay-at-home has engendered, has now exceeded death by COVID 19? That is simply one of the very sad unintended consequences of the government attempt to save people's lives. www.rt.com...

But the government doesn't care, Governors don't care, the media doesn't care.

And it is mostly young adults like your friend who are killing themselves in record numbers from the enforced anti-humanitarian lockdowns.

It is one of the great tragedies of our day.

Again my condolences.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: Serdgiam

The lockdown to me has always been the most worrying aspect of this beyond the disease itself.
I am therefore firmly on the side of those who are advocating that if we do a lockdown like this everyone out of work should be paid at least 95 percent of their usual income.

I was again surprised when they said the Spanish Flu era also had massive lockdowns. So this stuff isn’t out of nowhere.

As for what we know, relative to the experts. Well, they should be respected but folks have to realize experts are NOT always right. Indeed, I’ve heard varying opinions from the so-called experts so their obviously not always right.

The government can't pay everyone 95% of their usual income, the US government has spent more in stimulus in the past 2 months then it takes in as revenue for the entire year.

The employers with no income coming in, especially small businesses don't have the capital/money to keep paying people with no income.

Bankruptcy is looming for everyone and collapse of small business and collapse of US currency is already perilously close and a guarantee of everyone 95% of income not to work. Add to that, people won't work, the supply chain will end, people will starve - doctors will choose not to work - public transit will stop - grocery stores will have to close - no one would willingly work, why would they if they are promised 95% of their pay if they stay home.

a reply to: The2Billies

My gut (yea that and about 5 bucks will get you Starbucks) says that's why so many are pushing so hard and fast to open things up.

It sure looks like the "cure" to this point is going to do far more damage than the virus did.

a reply to: xuenchen

Source?
Or are you TOOYA?
Per usual

a reply to: xuenchen

Actually, the spread of the virus was more to do with troop movements coming back from WW1, compromised immune systems due to poor battlefield conditions, lack of fresh food, and stress.

Chlorine, mustard gas, bromine and phosgene, whilst having debilitating and fatal effects are not transmissible elements once exposure has passed.

a reply to: Willtell

I really dont like the idea of handling it with currency. Like.. at all. Im pretty outspoken about that though, so Ill just say that we have what we need to meet basic needs through technology. Can you imagine how differently this would play out if we had the means and tools for food production and manufacturing in our own homes?

Something really doesnt sit right with me about the fact that.. In many ways.. We are approaching this in exactly the same way we did in 1918.

Now, I definitely can see that lockdowns will slow the initial spread. I think this could be better accomplished voluntarily, perhaps even incentivized (rather than government mandates).

Beyond that though.. Im not convinced it is actually beneficial. I could absolutely be wrong, but it seems that looking specifically and only at the numbers of a single virus completely eschews anything else. That goes for anything from other health threats like compromised immune systems to the economy to maintaining medical system capability to "conspiracy land."

What if such extensive lockdowns actually precipitate worse pandemics?

With novel viruses, cytokine issues seem to frequently accompany them. Meaning, depending on the patient, stimulated or suppressed immune systems will present a plethora of symptoms. This would obfuscate anything under the banner of the current pandemic, even if they were actually the result of measures exacerbating the cytokine issues already present as our immune systems acclimate to a new threat.

Now, I have a strong personal bias on the subject. But, if we had the aforementioned food production & manufacturing in each of our homes, perhaps we would be even more likely to go into lockdowns (voluntary or not). If doing so for extended periods causes our immune systems to go out of wack, and cytokine storms are already an issue with novel viruses.. Maybe we would create a situation where we had some pretty nasty pandemics every few years.

Hard to say.. And models may be horribly flawed.

I feel like we need to completely "reset" our Cultural perpsective on health though. So much of what we do, and have been doing, might very well just snowball into oblivion.

What Ive been trying to do is find a way to do a full "vitamin & mineral" panel of my body, and coming up with a regimen specifically catered to myself that can change over time. Then start looking at things like regimens for specific health needs long & short term.

I could be completely off base, but intuitively.. It sounds right. Then, and only then, does it seem reasonable to start looking at things like pharmaceuticals and vaccines. But.. Through some personal experiences recently, I am thoroughly convinced of the very, very real therapeutic power of some basics like Vitamin C and even hydrogen-rich water.

Well.. That was a winding, rambling rant and a half. It sure is a difficult discussion to have without examining many different aspects though, imo. Yet.. that seems to be exactly what we are doing with everything from news coverage to stat tracking.

originally posted by: Willtell
Simply, to this day, THEY DON’T KNOW HOW THE SPANISH FLU ENDED!


No scientific certainty on how and why it ended.


Theories abound, one being the FLU started to be treated better through experience but this is refuted.

Another, mere theory, not a scientific fact, is that it mutated to a less lethal strain all by itself.

en.wikipedia.org...

End of the pandemic

After the lethal second wave struck in late 1918, new cases dropped abruptly – almost to nothing after the peak in the second wave.[59] In Philadelphia, for example, 4,597 people died in the week ending 16 October, but by 11 November, influenza had almost disappeared from the city. One explanation for the rapid decline in the lethality of the disease is that doctors became more effective in prevention and treatment of the pneumonia that developed after the victims had contracted the virus. However, John Barry stated in his 2004 book The Great Influenza: The Epic Story of the Deadliest Plague In History that researchers have found no evidence to support this position.[5] Some fatal cases did continue into March 1919, killing one player in the 1919 Stanley Cup Finals.
Another theory holds that the 1918 virus mutated extremely rapidly to a less lethal strain. This is a common occurrence with influenza viruses: there is a tendency for pathogenic viruses to become less lethal with time, as the hosts of more dangerous strains tend to die out[5] (see also "Deadly Second Wave", above).

Another strange thing about the Spanish Flu, maybe wrath from God for WW1, Is that people who were the fighting war age of 20 to 40 were the most who died, unlike the usual flu victims who are aged and very young and unlike the COVID 19 that is more lethal to the aged and middle-aged folks.

Another interesting thing Is that just what we are going through now is almost the same issues as there were in 1918: Social distancing, massive quarantines, massive shutdowns, and the studies concluded the social distancing and shutting down society is the best way to deal with the problem.

But strangely it went away by ITSELF, there was no medicine that worked nor any vaccine.

So, Trump's idea of that happening may not be as much of a screwball idea though it is not a scientific or reasonable way to conclude that COVID 19 will be the same way...Maybe it will...Time WillTell.

I hope it does and end soon as mysteriously as the 1918 flu evaporated.

Good thread, the history and mystery are fascinating and intriguing.

a reply to: ColoradoJens

It appears that we have learnt nothing in the 100 years since the so called Spanish flu. Statistics and cause of death manipulated to serve a purpose.