Super heated water and the Pyramids

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

Is that video intended to help your point, or hurt it? It looks like the cutting is going really slow.

Tsk, tsk, you really didn't like that did you. really cut out the heart of your arguments didn't it.

Oh but did you not hold that cutting granite with stone tools was near impossible. Here you have someone with primitive stone tool executing a precise cut. You said that was impossible as a matter of fact anything you don't like you say is impossible. No one anywhere at anytime said cutting granite would be fast.

I deny your denial - Just accept that granite can be worked by bashing and abrasives.

Just think about it. No matter how many workers you have, you can only assign one worker to each 2 foot by 4 foot area, really. That's all that will fit.

So? That was the reality unless you think they used trained rodents.... Remember they had thousands of years to do all the work!

So you should really just be asking yourself : how long would it take just one worker to cut out a 2 by 4 foot area of one of the trenches around that big monolith?

May you should be asking yourself why am I trying so hard to come up with something so I don't have to go with reality?

The video is showing time lapses that look like they could have taken hours, for one worker to chisel out a 3 inch by three inch, by three inch cube.

Yep it probably took quite a long time. I suspect a sarcophagus took months to years to make. Large monuments multiple years perhaps life times. Remember in an autocrat society nothing is impossible for the person who only has to order it done.

Yet it works and you have no alternative, nor can you explain why the AE art shows them doing it and there were pounders left insitu at the quarries. Additionally no evidence of another method has been left.

Possibly because you haven't tried it or done it for years?

I've done it for days on in rotating with others to finish a part of a Moai. It works and no matter what you protest about it is the only method that works that we have evidence for.

Flint pounders vs. limestone is a whole different question than diorite pounders vs. granite.

Yet no matter how much you whine and grind your teeth the method is known to work.

In the first place, it would make the task take a long time, because even if you have a million workers, you can only fit a few hundred of them around the obelisk at any given time before they would be tripping over each other.

So? The AE used pounders, so did the Sumerians, Tiwanaku, Inca, etc., etc. everyone did until people came up with iron tools. Hard stones were worked by bashing and using abrasives. No other method appears to have been used. They may have used fire but the evidence for that is insubstantial.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous

Is that video intended to help your point, or hurt it? It looks like the cutting is going really slow.

Tsk, tsk, you really didn't like that did you. really cut out the heart of your arguments didn't it.

Oh but did you not hold that cutting granite with stone tools was near impossible. Here you have someone with primitive stone tool executing a precise cut. You said that was impossible as a matter of fact anything you don't like you say is impossible. No one anywhere at anytime said cutting granite would be fast.

I deny your denial - Just accept that granite can be worked by bashing and abrasives.

No. I've never suggested it was impossible.

Only that it was wildly impractical.

The video supports the point I have actually tried to make perfectly. (Rather than the obviously false point I am - hopefully unintentionally- being straw manned into having attempted to make).


Of course you *can* cut granite with diorite. But the diorite gets worn down by the granite as you go. (The diorite wears also, just at a slower rate.)

And because Diorite is only barely harder, it's slow going.


The argument I keep trying to make is that pharoah's weren't stupid. If a pharoah does something that looks "wasteful" on the surface, there is probably going to be method to his madness. Something will have been gained from it.

There's really nothing to gain from using diorite to carve a granite monolith.

The pharoah isn't making himself look powerful, because only people who know a lot about stone cutting will know how many workers it took to make it.

But if he had a shortcut, then people who are ignorant of the short cut will think he is even more powerful than he actually is. That's a favorable "bang for the buck" investment for him, even if it still costs him a lot.


--- And you know how I know that his plan actually worked?

Because here you are today, believing him to have been just that powerful!

Just think about it. No matter how many workers you have, you can only assign one worker to each 2 foot by 4 foot area, really. That's all that will fit.

So? That was the reality unless you think they used trained rodents.... Remember they had thousands of years to do all the work!

Only if they had a crystal ball, and a psychic who could tell them in advance that their political stability was going to last that long.

Most people who invest something are looking for a return to arrive within one or two generations, so they might actually get to see it before they themselves die.

So you should really just be asking yourself : how long would it take just one worker to cut out a 2 by 4 foot area of one of the trenches around that big monolith?

May you should be asking yourself why am I trying so hard to come up with something so I don't have to go with reality?

What "reality"?

The evidence itself is uncompelling, so I have to figure that appeal to authority is what you're going for with that statement.

Do you think the mere fact an expert or authority figure says something makes it reality?

Are you 5 years old, and still need adults to tell you what to believe?

The video is showing time lapses that look like they could have taken hours, for one worker to chisel out a 3 inch by three inch, by three inch cube.

Yep it probably took quite a long time. I suspect a sarcophagus took months to years to make. Large monuments multiple years perhaps life times. Remember in an autocrat society nothing is impossible for the person who only has to order it done.

Right there: that is actually the falsehood I find so offensive.

That ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE of autocratic societies.

The reason "strong man" dictators come into power is because so many naive fools actually believe that, once the checks and balances are removed, this magical force of economic god power will suddenly make all their (or at least the dictator's) dreams come true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's like believing that Chuck Norris created the grand canyon by Karate chopping a rock too hard.


There is no magic to autocrats. In fact, actually documented history of the rise of free societies in Europe shows that the #1 reason monarchs were willing to let go of their strict controls was, often not because the people opposed them in force, but simply because they were seeing massive increases in economic output in the regions where the freedoms had been granted, which increased their tax base.

Yet it works and you have no alternative, nor can you explain why the AE art shows them doing it and there were pounders left insitu at the quarries. Additionally no evidence of another method has been left.

Possibly because you haven't tried it or done it for years?

I've done it for days on in rotating with others to finish a part of a Moai. It works and no matter what you protest about it is the only method that works that we have evidence for.

Moai is much softer than granite.

You understand the Pharaoh's didn't need to use granite, right? They had softer stones available.

But they chose to use granite.

You don't think they had a reason?

Flint pounders vs. limestone is a whole different question than diorite pounders vs. granite.

Yet no matter how much you whine and grind your teeth the method is known to work.

There is a difference between something working at all, and something being practical.

In the first place, it would make the task take a long time, because even if you have a million workers, you can only fit a few hundred of them around the obelisk at any given time before they would be tripping over each other.

So? The AE used pounders, so did the Sumerians, Tiwanaku, Inca, etc., etc. everyone did until people came up with iron tools. Hard stones were worked by bashing and using abrasives. No other method appears to have been used. They may have used fire but the evidence for that is insubstantial.

If fire works, and would have been known to them, then not using it strains plausibility.

Does it not?

When a hypothesis, on its face, strains plausibility, you usually want a little more evidence than when it doesn't.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
deleted

So please go find and then recreate what you think they used since you cannot seem to get your head around all those folks and civiliations using rocks for thousands of years.

By the way how long did it take Michelangelo to carve 'David''?

Two years, so carving marble with iron tools and abrasives is both impractical and strains plausibility, then of course he must not have done so...lol

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Here is a ink about making granite web.archive.org...://www.stolenhistory.org/threads/artificial-ancient-granite-and-marble.1413/

That site seems to have vanished from the Net !!! now and lives only on the way back machine so download it while you still can

originally posted by: stonerwilliam
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Here is a ink about making granite web.archive.org...://www.stolenhistory.org/threads/artificial-ancient-granite-and-marble.1413/

That site seems to have vanished from the Net !!! now and lives only on the way back machine so download it while you still can

You linked a forum post. You know how silly that is, right?
The poster claims certain pieces of ancient structures must be artificial granite because there is "desquamation" (a type of weathering) found on the granite.
The poster neglected to check to see if this sort of weathering happens on real granite.
It does.
link
All ancient granite is actual granite. Not manufactured granite.

Harte

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
deleted

So please go find and then recreate what you think they used since you cannot seem to get your head around all those folks and civiliations using rocks for thousands of years.

By the way how long did it take Michelangelo to carve 'David''?

Two years, so carving marble with iron tools and abrasives is both impractical and strains plausibility, then of course he must not have done so...lol

This thread's OP is a recreation of one thing they could possibly have done.

However, I may have done a poor job of fleshing it out.


Suppose they use their knowledge of copper working to build a big, giant teapot. Extra thick walls. And the pouring part would need a screw on lid.

They could put water in it, and heat it. It would hold in the pressure until the water gets super critical.

Then they unscrew the lid and pour it on some granite. The granite immediately softens temporarily, and they can just sort of scrape it around like putty for a bit.



Basically, the only questions are:

1)- Could the Egyptians build a giant teapot?

2)- How would they figure out that a giant teapot is a good way to melt granite?


My answer to the second question is: they might have discovered it by accident.

The first question I will leave to you.

"Then they unscrew the lid and pour it on some granite. The granite immediately softens temporarily..."

no, it just does not.
lolz.
cheers

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Suppose they use their knowledge of copper working to build a big, giant teapot. Extra thick walls. And the pouring part would need a screw on lid.

Okay, sure. Show me some screw threads from antiquity. Where are these screw on lids?

originally posted by: bloodymarvelousThey could put water in it, and heat it. It would hold in the pressure until the water gets super critical.

Then they unscrew the lid...

And then they die. You don't open a container of superheated steam without paying for it.
Or, did you think water could exist as a liquid at atmospheric pressure at that temperature?

Unscrewing that lid would kill most of the people within at least a 150 foot radius.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Basically, the only questions are:

1)- Could the Egyptians build a giant teapot?

2)- How would they figure out that a giant teapot is a good way to melt granite?


My answer to the second question is: they might have discovered it by accident.

The first question I will leave to you.

Sorry, those questions are irrelevant if they go along with "pouring water" at high temperature in atmospheric pressure.
I should list some questions myself, but they would all be about you and you don't seem to enjoy it as much as I do when I do that.

Harte

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

I searched for these exact words.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Suppose they use their knowledge of copper working to build a big, giant teapot. Extra thick walls. And the pouring part would need a screw on lid.

Okay, sure. Show me some screw threads from antiquity. Where are these screw on lids?

In the alternative, they could use a plug, and just secure it on there with a really strong padlock-style latch.

originally posted by: bloodymarvelousThey could put water in it, and heat it. It would hold in the pressure until the water gets super critical.

Then they unscrew the lid...

And then they die. You don't open a container of superheated steam without paying for it.
Or, did you think water could exist as a liquid at atmospheric pressure at that temperature?

Unscrewing that lid would kill most of the people within at least a 150 foot radius.

That's why you want a teapot design, with a long, tapered spout.

When you take the stopper off of the pout, superheated steam will start blasting out of it.

However, if there is quite a lot of water inside, and the end of the spout is very narrow, then it will blast for a long time (at least a few seconds anyway).

So you put the end of the spout near the granite you want to soften, and open it with a very long stick, so you yourself can be standing very far away.

originally posted by: anti72
"Then they unscrew the lid and pour it on some granite. The granite immediately softens temporarily..."

no, it just does not.
lolz.
cheers

It would probably be a good idea to soak the granite in normal water first, to get it into the pores, and then apply the superheated steam.

We've already established that fire can weaken granite. Superheated water steam would be, at a minimum, as hot as a normal fire.


So I don't see why it shouldn't work.