The Socialist Calculation Problem

"Huge holes in your thread"

hmmmm. Well what about the fact that you are using circular logic, stating that nations that lack an economic method could look at other countries who lack economic methods to rationally allocate resources. Or the fact that you haven't considered that sometimes only one nation has access to resources, so they could set a price that may or may not be a good one? How would you KNOW whether the price was right, unless you had the INPUT of the people DIRECTLY involved in production? You advocate "nationstates" as a solution, completely ignoring every technical aspect of what it actually takes to produce a good a "nationstate" can consume. You are divorced from reality, pompous as hell, and think you have refuted Mises. LOL where's your noble prize dude? I bet all the CEO's are lining up for your advice, huh? I bet you produce SO many SUCH ETHICAL products for your fellow man, am I right? Or are you someone who doesn't understand reality, who thinks he's smart, when REALLY he's ignorant of the process in which people PRODUCE things in REAL life, who wants to FEEL as though he is smarter than one of the most smart, respected economists of all time... LOL

a reply to: JimERustler

How would you KNOW whether the price was right

By looking at the market, like we do right now. It's not like the markets just going to up and disappear because one or more countries become "socialist".

Nice try kid.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: JimERustler

How would you KNOW whether the price was right

By looking at the market, like we do right now. It's not like the markets just going to up and disappear because one or more countries become "socialist".

Nice try kid.

see there's where you are wrong! The "markets" are giving you TERRIBLE price information! That's why people keep getting caught with their pants down via endless cycles of bigger and bigger crashes fueled by more and more irrationality... You have literally NO IDEA what you are talking about, because you make your decisions based on RIGGED numbers that are propped up by the suffering and slavery of people across the globe. What you are advocating is the VERY MOST UNETHICAL way to produce goods and services. At the barrel of a state gun. I hope the producers just quit in unison one day. That's what you deserve. Blind materialistic lust for seemingly magically produced products. People argue that you are asking too much? Just pass some "price gouging" laws, disregard their opinions, and watch the mask shortages mount up. While you are at it, perhaps you should over regulate them during times of emergency, vastly limiting their ability to adjust to emerging situations.

It's no wonder the most "developed" countries are getting hit the hardest by this virus. They are the biggest fools.

a reply to: JimERustler

see there's where you are wrong!

Not wrong. That's literally how it would work. There would be no other way. Period.

Also, you keep using the word "advocating", but I don't think you know what that word means. I've not once advocated for a thing in this thread. Just showing you how bad your OP and following arguments are.

originally posted by: TerryDon79
a reply to: JimERustler

see there's where you are wrong!

Not wrong. That's literally how it would work. There would be no other way. Period.

Also, you keep using the word "advocating", but I don't think you know what that word means. I've not once advocated for a thing in this thread. Just showing you how bad your OP and following arguments are.

"work" I don't think you know what that means. It does NOT work. This system SUCKS - you know the one - where we listen to a bunch of old morons about things that they have no business talking about. Such as looking to OTHER nationstates (collectives) for honest price signals. Nationstates ought to sit down, shut up, and watch and learn how it's actually done. The private market has saved them time and time before, but NOW would be a good time to consider what happens when the government asks for stuff which CANNOT BE PRODUCED fast enough to save them... This virus should be a good wake up call to the blind materialists, but NO they print money and rig interest rates as if THAT has ever solved the actual issues before. They endlessly repeat the same old tried and failed methods to insert their judgement over those who have the most experience and vested interest in almost EVERY subject. They make up any and EVERY reason they can for why they NEED to do this, but the real reason is that they are a bunch of neurotic control freaks who lust endlessly for power over their fellow man. THEY are the "greedy capitalist" that the libsocs rage against. THEY ARE THE SYMBOL OF BLIND MATERIALISM. Not those who want to make their fellow man happy by providing VOLUNTARY services, at VOLUNTARY prices.

a reply to: JimERustler

You know what, kid? I’m gonna leave you to your little tantrum.

Cheerio.

a reply to: TerryDon79

You seem to be forgetting all the historic evidence that proves you wrong.
Greece
Venezuela
Russia

Socialism doesn't work in the economic side because the leadership dictates what is in demand and what is not. When that is better established by demand through commerce.

Didn't the pinnacle of Trotsky's argument essentially boil down to a socialist society couldn't work by developing itself, that only through the pinnacle of a capitalist society can you achieve a truly working socialist society?

The problem is, he never explained how that works (because he didn't know), or suggest the mechanism needed for the pinnacle of a capitalist society to transition to a socialist society.

When we look at the problem from "inside" a capitalist society we can't imagine a socialist society ever working... all we see is our capitalist future projections either peaking out, dropping off or generally not working.

The pressure valve for these impossible projections traditionally has been war. A war flattens all of the economic and social curves, but also generates predictable growth projections after the war (war in itself is a somewhat predictable decline), meaning the capitalist system can continue to function without having to face the unknown state of exponential projections (both social and economic).

War has got harder to do in an ever increasing global world... it's had to justify attacking a country when your nephew's wife comes from that country, etc.

So war has largely become economic, ie. trade wars... but even with the controlled market approach to balancing the global spreadsheet (been happening for a century), all the curves continue to grow to an unmanageable point.

Its a whole other topic, but this relates to the amount of "resource" in the world, vs. the amount of cash in the world... hint; with inflation, there will always be more cash than resource. In a sense, it's that, that is the core to the capitalist system... it's all about predicting how much money there will be and making money off that prediction... a pandemic shows the fatal flaw in this system because it halts the link between actual resource and future projections... causing everything to seemingly "stop working", even though technically everything is still in place.

It is only the perceived value of resource that has been effected, not the resource itself... that "perception of value" just has a carry on effect, all the way down to people buying food.

Which put us where we are.

Funnily enough, we think we are living in a capitalist society, yet the world is beholden to global and central banks, which are private organizations. We are living in a "hidden in plain daylight" socialist society anyway.

The only problem is the perception, or rather the interpretation of two seemingly conflicting systems. Socialism and capitalism...

The trick at the moment is, due to the exponential growth of capitalism, as a theoretical system (a controlled system that at it's pinnacle looks like socialism) is that both systems, when interpreted through their seeming contradictions, actually almost exactly mimic each other when applied to the globe at this precise point in time.

So what does that mean?

Due to current social and economic pressures, capitalism is socialism.

The transition to a better system (more a socialist/capitalist hybrid) can be achieved right now if we visualise capitalism as a landscape of pyramids, where the peaks represent nodes or the "tops" of money and power (governments, banks, organizations, wealthy individuals, etc.), and the pyramids beneath represents society (businesses, people, trade, media, etc). In this mental model, currently any "transaction" (transaction being any task or activity between entites) has to travel down the side of one pyramid and up the side of another to happen, with the risk at every level of travel up and down the pyramid allows for potential interference of the direct transaction.

A transition from the pyramid structural model of society (capitalism), can be enacted using a networked approach, or a "flat" model (socialism) if visualised in relation to our pyramid analogy. By flattening the pyramid structural landscape, to a "flatland" style of model, where the peaks of the pyramids of the capitalist system represent the nodes in a flat networked system.

Our current technology levels could allow for the organizational challenges to achieve this.

This is where our "leaders" see the place for a cashless society, removing physical cash... I argue that we need both... we need the fluidity of a cashless society, mixed with the redundancy afforded by physical cash. We can also use technology to bring back direct trade in this system (not having to travel up and down the pyramids) , so the "cash" or middle man can be cut out in many places.

Now, can we realise this as a globe and allow the transition to happen without it slipping into an authoritarian nightmare?

Just my 2 cents.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

"Capitalism IS socialism" uhhh up IS down. Left IS right. War IS peace.


Moreover, freedom is slavery.

ssssshhhhhh go back to sleep now, everything is going to be okay, let the grownups talk about this....

a reply to: JimERustler

Very rude as you don't even understand what I am saying... if you're not smart enough to comment intelligently, no need to comment at all.

I very much doubt you even read my whole post to understand the point I am making about the effective perceptive natures of the two ideologies.

Probably a bit hard for you to get through... sorry, i have to remember there are people on here with minimal education.