Plate tectonics, climate, shark teeth

Years and years ago I participated in a trip that went around parts of upstate new York to study plate tectonics and climate change.

What I remeber is walking along small fresh water streams where we sifted through soil that we collected under the water.

we would find shark teeth and other salt water fossils.

So why are shark teeth in fresh water rivers?

I was told a very long time ago that there had to
be salt water seas in the upstate NY area and because of plate tectonics and uplift, the seas dried out.

Imagine the doom and gloom of seeing an ocean change so drastically. And then the surrounding environment change so quickly as well. Rapid meaning a few hundred Years

Another theory is a shaknado or tidal wave that displaced these sharks , but that would not explain the uplift as seen in the mountains of upstate ny.

It such events were to happen today, how would people react?

And does this show an example of climate change that humans could never start or prevent?

a reply to: Bloodworth
I put this in another thread. All of our ancestors lived through all the cataclysms that affected this Earth and you are evidence of it. You adapt and survive.

a reply to: Bloodworth



I refuse to head as far south as New York these days, but I'd you were there studying climate change I'm curious what your thoughts on sea levels are.

see, I live and work a few hours north of there. I'VE spent thousands of hours doing my job on buildings less than a stone's throw from the ocean. many odd these buildings have dated corner stones... because purpose used to be involved.
most of that city was built around 1810- It's all down town corporation owned and operated now, but I'd anyone was to believe that climate change was causing sea levels to rise that whole city would know.
instead, they're building new piers next to old ones- with century old timber still sticking out of the water where the old pier was.

originally posted by: Bloodworth
So why are shark teeth in fresh water rivers?

Because they were on the ground and water washed the ground away from the teeth.

Imagine the doom and gloom of seeing an ocean change so drastically. And then the surrounding environment change so quickly as well. Rapid meaning a few hundred Years

It's not that fast, it takes several thousands or millions of years to happen.

It such events were to happen today, how would people react?

They are happening, but too slowly for us to notice.

a reply to: Bloodworth

Apparently: this whole area, as well as some parts of Upstate New-York, were covered by the saltwater Champlain Sea.


From Wikipedia:

The sea lasted from about 13,000 years ago to about 10,000 years ago and was continuously shrinking during that time, since the rebounding continent was slowly rising above sea level. At its peak, the sea extended inland as far south as Lake Champlain and somewhat farther west than the city of Ottawa, Ontario, and farther up the Ottawa River past Pembroke.[5] The remaining glaciers fed the sea during that time, making it more brackish than typical seawater. It is estimated that the sea was as much as 150 metres (490 ft) above the level of today's Saint Lawrence and Ottawa Rivers.[5]

originally posted by: Bloodworth
Years and years ago I participated in a trip that went around parts of upstate new York to study plate tectonics and climate change.

What I remeber is walking along small fresh water streams where we sifted through soil that we collected under the water.

we would find shark teeth and other salt water fossils.

So why are shark teeth in fresh water rivers?

I was told a very long time ago that there had to
be salt water seas in the upstate NY area and because of plate tectonics and uplift, the seas dried out.

Imagine the doom and gloom of seeing an ocean change so drastically. And then the surrounding environment change so quickly as well. Rapid meaning a few hundred Years

Another theory is a shaknado or tidal wave that displaced these sharks , but that would not explain the uplift as seen in the mountains of upstate ny.

Those aren't the only two possible explanations.

Sharks and thus shark teeth can be found far from salt water, in Illinois for example. Bull Sharks swam up the Mississippi, here's one that was caught in Illinois:

Sharks In Illinois

The Atlas of North American Freshwater Fishes describes the bull shark (Carcharhinus leucas) as an aggressive shark that reaches 10 feet in length and has been known to attack man. Its range extends as far up the Mississippi River as Alton, Illinois.

According to the Illinois Department of Conservation, two commercial fishermen from Alton, Herbert Cope and Dudge Collins, caught a bull shark in 1937. They found something troubling their wood and mesh traps late that summer. Concluding that it was a fish, they built a strong wire trap and baited it with chicken guts.

The next morning, they caught a 5-foot 84-pound shark, which they displayed in the Calhoun Fish Market where it attracted crowds for days. Although some folks suspected a hoax, the catch was considered authentic. Biologists later concluded from photos that it was a bull shark. Recently, Clint Smith of Alton supplied an old photo of the catch, with the present-day ADM flourmill in the background.

Here is the photo of the shark caught in the Mississippi in 1937:



Whether bull sharks swam in any rivers in New York I don't know but they definitely swim in other fresh water rivers like the Mississippi.

As ArMaP suggested, the mountains of upstate NY or any other mountains don't form fast, maybe an inch a year. So all you would get in 200 years is at most 200-400 inches of rise, hardly a mountain.

For a rapid change in the environment, something like an eruption of a large volcano or series of volcanoes could do it. That can happen much more rapidly than mountain formation.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: Bloodworth
Years and years ago I participated in a trip that went around parts of upstate new York to study plate tectonics and climate change.

What I remeber is walking along small fresh water streams where we sifted through soil that we collected under the water.

we would find shark teeth and other salt water fossils.

So why are shark teeth in fresh water rivers?

I was told a very long time ago that there had to
be salt water seas in the upstate NY area and because of plate tectonics and uplift, the seas dried out.

Imagine the doom and gloom of seeing an ocean change so drastically. And then the surrounding environment change so quickly as well. Rapid meaning a few hundred Years

Another theory is a shaknado or tidal wave that displaced these sharks , but that would not explain the uplift as seen in the mountains of upstate ny.

Those aren't the only two possible explanations.

Sharks and thus shark teeth can be found far from salt water, in Illinois for example. Bull Sharks swam up the Mississippi, here's one that was caught in Illinois:

Sharks In Illinois

The Atlas of North American Freshwater Fishes describes the bull shark (Carcharhinus leucas) as an aggressive shark that reaches 10 feet in length and has been known to attack man. Its range extends as far up the Mississippi River as Alton, Illinois.

According to the Illinois Department of Conservation, two commercial fishermen from Alton, Herbert Cope and Dudge Collins, caught a bull shark in 1937. They found something troubling their wood and mesh traps late that summer. Concluding that it was a fish, they built a strong wire trap and baited it with chicken guts.

The next morning, they caught a 5-foot 84-pound shark, which they displayed in the Calhoun Fish Market where it attracted crowds for days. Although some folks suspected a hoax, the catch was considered authentic. Biologists later concluded from photos that it was a bull shark. Recently, Clint Smith of Alton supplied an old photo of the catch, with the present-day ADM flourmill in the background.

Here is the photo of the shark caught in the Mississippi in 1937:

Whether bull sharks swam in any rivers in New York I don't know but they definitely swim in other fresh water rivers like the Mississippi.

As ArMaP suggested, the mountains of upstate NY or any other mountains don't form fast, maybe an inch a year. So all you would get in 200 years is at most 200-400 inches of rise, hardly a mountain.

For a rapid change in the environment, something like an eruption of a large volcano or series of volcanoes could do it. That can happen much more rapidly than mountain formation.

Would have had to be a populated area, the amount of shark teeth in ny is in the millions.

People have been digging them up for years with groups picking them out daily.

Must have been a great river or ocean..

a reply to: Bloodworth

Sharks have many teeth and create a new one whenever an old falls, that's why shark teeth are so common.

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: Bloodworth
So why are shark teeth in fresh water rivers?

Because they were on the ground and water washed the ground away from the teeth.

Imagine the doom and gloom of seeing an ocean change so drastically. And then the surrounding environment change so quickly as well. Rapid meaning a few hundred Years

It's not that fast, it takes several thousands or millions of years to happen.

It such events were to happen today, how would people react?

They are happening, but too slowly for us to notice.

Any change that gradual will have no effect on humans or other life, as they will adapt over the millions of years.

So why the doom and gloom preached to us about climate change and rising sea levels?

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Any change that gradual will have no effect on humans or other life, as they will adapt over the millions of years.

So why the doom and gloom preached to us about climate change and rising sea levels?

I was talking about tectonic movements, when the land rises or lowers, I was not talking about rising sea levels.

Climate change is much faster than tectonic movements and smaller variations can have big effects.

originally posted by: ArMaP
a reply to: Bloodworth

Sharks have many teeth and create a new one whenever an old falls, that's why shark teeth are so common.

Actually with the bull shark which has no problems living in fresh water, the new teeth are already there, so when a tooth is lost there are rows of teeth already existing that can move into place to replace lost teeth, within one day. They have many many rows of teeth ready to go, as seen here:

www.oceanseeds.org...


I don't know exactly how many teeth a bull shark can lose in a lifetime, but some species of shark, a single shark is estimated to lose 30,000-50,000 teeth in a lifetime.

Sharks have been in the fresh water Mississippi river a long time, because shark tooth based weapons have been found in the almost 1000 year old Cahokia Mounds in the upper Mississippi river valley, over 1000 kilometers away from the ocean. Those are also in Illinois, the same state where they caught a bull shark in the freshwater river there in 1937.

originally posted by: ArMaP
I was talking about tectonic movements, when the land rises or lowers, I was not talking about rising sea levels.

Climate change is much faster than tectonic movements and smaller variations can have big effects.

Right, those are completely different processes and tectonic movements are always slow, unless you count the possible exception of volcanic activity which may or may not be related to tectonic movement, and that's the only possible link between tectonic activity and climate change I can think of. A lot of volcanic activity can release a lot of ash which can block sunlight, lowering temperatures, sort of like the "nuclear winter" scenario we used to hear about during the cold war.

In fact one possible reason for warming since the 1980s might be that the aerosols released by Krakatoa are losing the cooling effect they had of lowering temperatures which lasted for maybe 100 or so years with the Krakatoa eruption in 1883:

In 1883, Krakatau’s explosion caused a century of climate chaos

Krakatau has been extremely active for hundreds of years. In August 1883, it erupted to stupendous effect, obliterating its three islands, and killing tens of thousands of people...

There was a lasting effect on the world’s climate, too: aerosols emitted into the atmosphere by the blast led global air temperatures to drop by as much as 2.2 degrees Fahrenheit (1.2 degrees Celsius). According to a 2006 article in the journal Nature, the volcano caused oceans to cool for as much as a century, offsetting the effect of human activity on ocean temperatures. If the volcano had not erupted, the authors argue, our sea levels might be much higher than they are today.