The Universe Creating Itself From Nothing

a reply to: LABTECH767

Hi LT.
Yeah, have been 'there', and have 'explored' 'there'.
Good thought-exercise, and it does resonate 'here'.

That last paragraph is interesting. Could you expand on that, or explain it a different way ?

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Willtell
Empirical reality shows us NOTHING comes from nothing folks. However we put it some force of intelligence had to create this universe.

Call it God or not it has to be.

Again, why assume there was ever nothing? If you assert God in that position, then you literally are asserting God just exists from nothing. It's the same problem.

Why does nobody see the obvious double standard in pretending that space-time and energy can't exist eternally but a cosmic super intelligence can? It's silly.

All I know is, nothin comes from nothin, Nothin

All I know is that you have posted this a dozen times in this thread, when it's a complete red herring. There is no reason to assume nothing ever existed, plus your position is unfalsifiable. End of story.

I don’t even deal with the origin of God. It’s irrelevant.

My take Is that WE KNOW ANYTHING IN EXISTENCE HAS AN ORIGIN in something else other than itself. We all see and know this empirically.

Who said nothing didn't ever exist?

I said that nothing doesn't mean literally nothing.

Origin of god is as irrelevant as origin of universe. It's beyond our knowledge at this point. If you say that nothing doesn't literally mean nothing, why do you keep saying nothing comes from nothing? If nothing is actually something as you say, then something is coming from something.

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Barcs

Haven't you heard? A creationist liar on youtube claims knows more about science than scientists. Give a real source. I love how people that understand science source research papers, and you guys source pathological liars on youtube.

Looks up...
Looks down...
Looks left...
Looks right...
Looks in...
Looks out...

Uhmmmm....
Who are these ..."...you guys..."..., that you seem to have invented out of thin air ?

Are you an internet expert, in creating something out of Nothin ?

I know a fallacious argument when I see it.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Pass the dutchy, my friend!

originally posted by: Barcs

I know a fallacious argument when I see it.

Maybe you do ? Maybe you don't ?

So:
Who are these ..."...you guys..."..., that you seem to have invented out of thin air ?

Are you an internet expert, in creating something out of Nothin ?

a reply to: Barcs

Haha, the one time I tried something, very young as well all that Dutchy did was put me into a state of wanting to nod off, I just don't get it why do people imbibe crap like that.
Personally I don't even drink, nutty enough without it haha.

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Barcs

I know a fallacious argument when I see it.

Maybe you do ? Maybe you don't ?

So:
Who are these ..."...you guys..."..., that you seem to have invented out of thin air ?

Are you an internet expert, in creating something out of Nothin ?

What is an internet expert? I know logic and science.

You guys = creationists.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Barcs

Haha, the one time I tried something, very young as well all that Dutchy did was put me into a state of wanting to nod off, I just don't get it why do people imbibe crap like that.
Personally I don't even drink, nutty enough without it haha.

It's different for everybody, but I find it can lead to deeper spirituality than any religion can.

originally posted by: Hammaraxx
Let's Begin With Nothing, No Time, No Space

Imagining absolutely nothing is apparently not an easy thing for most people to do, but for this exercise, it’s something I’d like you to try.

Before anything ever existed, there was nothing. Nothing at all. No light, no time, nothing to compare size to, no up or down.

I saw this thread a few days ago and oh my, it brought back so many memories and even some emotions and sensations. I used to do this often, when i was a kid. I started to contemplate about total nothingness at around age 8 and it continued to my teen years also, but for some reason, i don't do that anymore now that i am an adult.

I remember, regarding this thought experiment, that i could easily reach the state of sensing only blackness. Then i thought that "black" shouldn't exist because there is nothing. And of course then i realized that i just had a thought, therefore, at least i exist. It is very difficult to reach the complete understanding of the concept of nothing existing, and i never fully reached it.

Editing to add: I apologize, i didn't answer your initial question.

The Great Question

How did the existence of our universe originate?

So there was nothing. Then God just showed up somehow. I don't know where from, how, or why. And of course i can't know for certain if there is a God. But i believe. I am not religious, though.

I was watching the history channel and their saga called, “The Men that built America
“

The Tesla, Edison period when they were financed by J.P Morgan and when “magic” or during the advent of electricity where Edison said, the power behind this great new technology is UNSEEN.

The point is what’s behind reality is unseen to certain dimensions. The material scientist say dogmatically: “BELIEVE ONLY IN WHAT YOU SEE”

Then they don’t believe in the electron being behind electricity.


Or they forget we as humans have perceptual limitations at the state we are in now


THAT'S WHY THEY CALL RELIGION--Faith


Faith in the unseen

Upgrade your perceptive capacity and you can see behind certain phenomena

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Barcs

I know a fallacious argument when I see it.

Maybe you do ? Maybe you don't ?

So:
Who are these ..."...you guys..."..., that you seem to have invented out of thin air ?

Are you an internet expert, in creating something out of Nothin ?

What is an internet expert? I know logic and science.

You guys = creationists.

Oh: you know; Folks that are somewhere on the interwebs, pretending to know things that they don't.

Like folks whom claim to 'know' logic, while displaying that they don't know Nothin.

Some people call them: 'Know-It-All-Know-Nothings', or KIAKN for short.


(Don't really 'know' these things. They are merely opinion/belief/temporary ideas/observations/thoughts/concepts).

i watched this hour long video: www.youtube.com...
Everything and Nothing: What is Nothing?

(Jim Al-Khalili) | Science Documentary | Science.................... appox. 59 minutes

177,434 views•Nov 25, 2019

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Barcs

I know a fallacious argument when I see it.

Maybe you do ? Maybe you don't ?

So:
Who are these ..."...you guys..."..., that you seem to have invented out of thin air ?

Are you an internet expert, in creating something out of Nothin ?

What is an internet expert? I know logic and science.

You guys = creationists.

Oh: you know; Folks that are somewhere on the interwebs, pretending to know things that they don't.

Like folks whom claim to 'know' logic, while displaying that they don't know Nothin.

Some people call them: 'Know-It-All-Know-Nothings', or KIAKN for short.


(Don't really 'know' these things. They are merely opinion/belief/temporary ideas/observations/thoughts/concepts).

I don't claim to know everything. I do understand logic and science, as I said. Most people in denial do not.

Why do you think I'm only pretending to understand logic? Where have I used a fallacy? If I'm pretending it should be easy to highlight my logical flaws.

And yeah, I don't know Nothin (you).

originally posted by: Barcs

I don't claim to know everything. I do understand logic and science, as I said. Most people in denial do not.

Why do you think I'm only pretending to understand logic? Where have I used a fallacy? If I'm pretending it should be easy to highlight my logical flaws.

And yeah, I don't know Nothin (you).

Good. Perhaps we could revisit your belief that am a creationist ?

Thinking about that: have re-watched the posted video, and have noticed, as you, that it does definitely reach for a Theistic/Creationist conclusion.

Perhaps you will be surprised to hear that the conclusion made no impression on me.
Maybe it sounds odd, as most folks here are seeking to 'know' things, and reaching conclusions is on that path, no ?

Am not like that. Watch vids, read, and listen, just to ideas, concepts, opinions, beliefs, and such, just to appreciate the ideas, and toss them all into the eternally unfinished soup-pot.

So that is how you found me offering a Creationist-made, and based vid, while not being a believer myself ?
The moment they made conclusions didn't faze me, nor make my ears curl-around backwards.
When someone, anyone reaches conclusions, am just sorta glazing-over those, and just contemplating the ideas.

Am not a scientist, and so my thoughts on the first 12 mins of the video are also non-conclusive, but they seemed not too bad, from my limited understanding of QM.
Perhaps those scientific articles could be referenced directly from where they are hosted ?

The idea is that: am feeling like a convergence is underway, between religion, ancient philosophies, and QM/science.
And what they are pointing at, is: nothing.
Non-thingness.
But the jury is still out to lunch... LoL !

Yeah: it seems like even some ways of describing God, can align with nothing. Like it being in and through all 'things', but not really there.
Am not interested in differences, (dualism). Am looking at ideas, concepts, opinions, beliefs, and such, that unify, rather than those that divide the world into separate things.

The philosophy of Materialism may have been slayed by QM, but am not convinced at all that QM leads us to Creationism.
( Apologies if you think that my choice of videos was misleading. )

I like the idea that the universe was created -- and keeps being created -- with thought. Thought that is created out of a quantum fog and has no particular adherence to time. If we keep imagining what the universe was like "at the beginning," that's what creates it. Our imaginations, our thoughts. That's why the universe keeps getting older. It's not really getting older, but our contemplation of it keeps pushing the concept farther "back" in time.

Again, this is allowing that time itself is an illusion, and that there is / was no universe until something in some way aware or living started experiencing it and making it real.

a reply to: Nothin

The philosophy of Materialism may have been slayed by QM, but am not convinced at all that QM leads us to Creationism.

Materialism has not been slayed by anything. Too much is still unknown in QM at this time, hence why there are so many different interpretations. Only the woowoo interpretation goes against materialism, like when people jump to invalid conclusions for example the long misinterpreted observer effect, which actually is NOT about consciousness.

originally posted by: Barcs

Materialism has not been slayed by anything. Too much is still unknown in QM at this time, hence why there are so many different interpretations. Only the woowoo interpretation goes against materialism, like when people jump to invalid conclusions for example the long misinterpreted observer effect, which actually is NOT about consciousness.

Woo-woo eh ? Why do you believe that ?

..."...Too much is still unknown..."... ; ..."...many interpretations..."... : yet you believe that consciousness is definitely not involved ? How could one be so sure ?

Would you consider yourself a believer of Materialism ? Realism ? Thingness ?

originally posted by: St Udio


i watched this hour long video: www.youtube.com...
Everything and Nothing: What is Nothing?

(Jim Al-Khalili) | Science Documentary | Science.................... appox. 59 minutes

177,434 views•Nov 25, 2019

Almost an hour of talking about nothing? Some people have a lot to say about nothing.

It's not a complicated word or concept though. It does not require a convoluted talk or debate to determin or re-define what "nothing" means. Here are 2 guys that spend 2 hours on it (I don't actually recommend watching it):

Wallowing in their own contradictory philosophies and blah blah blah about nothing. And the audience loves it, captivated by their supposed 'wisdom', 'knowledge' and 'understanding' about the subject (as perceived by the audience that is).

What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”* [KJV: “wallowing in the mire.”] (2 Peter 2:22)

Like a dog that returns to its vomit,

The stupid one repeats his foolishness. (Proverbs 26:11)

By the way, did you notice the video you linked is labeled as "Science" and a "Science documentary"? Rather than "Philosophy" for example.

No amount of convoluted marketing-talk will make the contradiction (the pea I mentioned earlier) go away. The video you linked says in the description:

His journey ends with perhaps the most profound insight about reality that humanity has ever made. Everything came from nothing.

So nonsense is now "the most profound insight about reality that humanity has ever made"? Nice marketing description. I'm still seeing the pea though (maybe I'm hearing a bell ringing):

originally posted by: whereislogic

Wallowing in their own contradictory philosophies and blah blah blah about nothing. And the audience loves it, captivated by their supposed 'wisdom', 'knowledge' and 'understanding' about the subject (as perceived by the audience that is).

A bit like the way the Stargate Atlantis personnel are reacting to Lucius Lavin in this episode:

At that point in the episode it's just Dr. Beckett being affected (impressed, infatuated with the storyteller/snake oil salesman).

Context:

Psychology: The Art of selling nonsense/contradictions part 1

Or you can start even earlier:

Bait-and-Switch Atheist Propaganda

originally posted by: Nothin

originally posted by: Barcs

Materialism has not been slayed by anything. Too much is still unknown in QM at this time, hence why there are so many different interpretations. Only the woowoo interpretation goes against materialism, like when people jump to invalid conclusions for example the long misinterpreted observer effect, which actually is NOT about consciousness.

Woo-woo eh ? Why do you believe that ?

..."...Too much is still unknown..."... ; ..."...many interpretations..."... : yet you believe that consciousness is definitely not involved ? How could one be so sure ?

Would you consider yourself a believer of Materialism ? Realism ? Thingness ?

Because people constantly claim the observer effect is caused by consciousness when its caused by the electron microscope affecting the readings it takes, which has nothing to do with consciousness. And I never said consciousness is definitely NOT involved, just that there's no reason / evidence to think such. I don't jump to conclusions about unknowns, I admit they are unknown.

I don't consider myself materialist, but I'm a skeptic and there is no evidence of a non material anything existing without a material cause. Once that is discovered, then and only then will materialism be "slayed." As of now, it's still a viable / valid possibility.