11,300 year old temple found in Mardin Turkey

....As the song says, Silence is Golden...a reply to: Harte

originally posted by: bluesfreak
....As the song says, Silence is Golden...a reply to: Harte

Yes.
I've noted your silence on my question about what you suppose the AE's used as cutting tools on their stonework lathes.

Harte

I’ve answered you, 3 posts back. And in some detail. Go back and read it, then come back to me .
Also posed you some questions regarding Stocks incorrect methodology of his core drill experiments.

If you don’t respond to the continuous questions I posed regarding RESULTANT edging from large saw blades/circular saws, my cutting tool response for primitive lathes and Stocks’ shocking cheating method for his core drill, then you’ll have to put this stupid pointy hat on, and stand in the corner of my engineering class.
I’ve asked you enough times for a response all the while answering your questions, and anyone following this thread will have noticed.
Shame you can’t do the same, or even keep up with the thread and see I already replied to your lathe question .
a reply to: Harte

Watched this a couple of months ago. Kinda boring due to everything still being buried but it is related.
Quad

Maybe Harte’s on holiday.... I await his return.
Ps to everyone else while Harte’s away, I never meant to derail this tread into engineering, just cannot stand by when someone makes sweeping statements in my area of expertise regarding tooling and possible methods. I dont often chime in on threads.
If the mods want to move mine and Hartes interactions from where I butted in to a new thread then I’m all for that.
Let’s talk real engineering possibilities and the evidence for it.

There is way more to this than people like Harte would have you believe. And I’m not talking aliens crystals etc. We can’t underestimate the scale of genius of our ancestors when working huge stones, working hard stones, mass producing items like the Bent Pyramid casing stones appear to be..
The forensic markings talk a different language in many instances, yes there was pounding etc, but many tooling marks show something entirely different.
Now where IS Harte...think he might reply in detail to anything I’ve discussed??! .a reply to: Harte

a reply to: LedermanStudio

i think allot of these huge stone monuments arent real rocks per say.

there is no way for these people back then to have moved these stones as whole pieces and are either some sort of concrete that we dont have knowledge of anymore or the rocks were melted in some way and poured in to place.


Both ways would explain ALLOT kike the smooth 'cuts' and perfectly straight lines, if your building molds it is super easy to get the lines perfect or to fit irregularly shaped but perfectly fit stone.

a reply to: penroc3

The tech to melt and pour stone on such a scale is not something that is Not very feasible for pre Neolithic societies.

Just saying.

Brute Force can get a lot done, given the right amt of manpower, resources and time.

have you noticed that every etching, painting, and carving, in these and other places, are ALWAYS ancient people trying to speak, or communicate something important...I call BS....rich guys back then might have simply liked to have some type of art on their stone walls....

20,000 years ago..........

rich guy...."draw me a square headed dancer"

carving guy...."sure thing, would you like me to draw in the sun, too"?

rich guy.... "oh okay, make it look great, and i'll pay you an extra goat"

20,000 years later in 2019............

"team ET"...just found a space helmeted being coming out of a glowing disk"....IT MUST BE ALIENS!!!!

originally posted by: KansasGirl
Just a dumb person's guess here, but I've always thought that they should be digging up that whole area- all those miles of plains with nothing but dirt hills on them, with stuff obviously underneath. Same in Egypt. They should just start shoving sand aside out there until they hit more tombs and temples. And whatever else!

The only problem is funding. Generally speaking, digging up old stuff is rather low on the priority list.

a reply to: pavil

who ever built the megalithic structures were much much more advanced than we give them credit for.

i dont think they ever found high quality glass at any of these sites but if they did it would go along way into explaining a way they could passively heat the stone up with some sort of huge magnifying lens

OR

maybe they discovered electromagnetism and when they were messing around with that they some how discovered induction heating.

originally posted by: bluesfreak
Dear Harte, don’t forget to look at my reply to your lathe question above ! Oh, and my repeated questions in return, that you somehow avoid answering.
Anyway, I’ve been doing a little digging regarding Stocks’ core drill experiment, regarding my questions relating to it in the post previous to this.
Here’s the video , an easy 5 min watch, a great piece of unintentional comedy :
youtu.be...

It appears Stocks solved the question of how the copper sheet is joined together along its seam , seeing as the AE could not weld, solder or Braze: —He bought himself a fully formed , probably extruded ( AE COULDNT DO THAT) copper pipe!! So funny! Didn’t even make one with the tooling and methods the AE had .
Next, it’s quite a thick looking modern made pipe- a cursory investigation of AE core drill holes reveals a tube drill of about 1mm thickness at the base of the cut. Stocks ignores this significant factor in the design of the tool.

Copper tubes found at Giza:
link
Source for the above
link

They use STEEL wedges to remove the core!!! Why’s that , lads? Copper not strong enough to break it out???!!
If anyone fancies watching 5mins of self-congratulatory back slapping whilst ignoring major design issues and using materials the AE DIDNT HAVE, do check it out. Core stuff is about half way through.

Any wedge would certainly work. Including wood, which has been used for millennia to break stone, and was used in the limestone quarries at Giza.

Proof Stocks’ attempts are fundamentally flawed, and yet he’s made a career from this BS.

Proves that you have lathes on the brain and cannot look past your tailstock.

Harte

Typical Harte, calls me out for not answering his lathe questions, when I had, (everyone can plainly see) then proceeds to not respond to any of it , and conveniently uses my next post for the start of his reply.

Also, by attempting to ridicule me simply because I work on lathes , ( I work on milling machines too, shapers, but that’s beside the point) proclaiming I see lathes in everything and can’t see past my tailstock is hilarious, I never said the core drills were done on lathes ! (impossible) just the objects that show turning methodology.
Your lack of detailed response to any of my engineering/machining questions shows me what I’m dealing with.
Again , this from a guy who claims he has worked on lathes, but can’t recognise the most basic and most obvious tooling marks left behind by them. Now THAT is funny.

Ok, so let’s go over some points regarding AE tube drills:

1) Are you claiming that the copper tubes you link to ARE the tube drills used by AE in the coring cuts we see?

If you are claiming these ARE core drills, D Stocks got his design WAY wrong didn’t he?

2) On the video, Stocks appears all scientific, measuring a tube drill hole that has been snapped in half along its length: he measures it and proclaims
“ hmmm, 8 inches.” But then , very unscientifically conveniently forgets to measure the TOOL WIDTH, which is plainly in sight and easily measurable.
This is why Stocks work here is flawed.

A) didn’t use AE methods to make his core drill- he bought one.
B) drill tool WAY too thick (but he needed it to be thick to prove his method with rock weights atop; would a 1mm thick piece of copper sheet hold up under these pressures? Would it kink and /or bend under wieghted , twisting pressure? We don’t know from Stocks experiments, because he deliberately used a thicker tool to prevent failure.
Some AE holes go RIGHT THROUGH pieces of granite, not just to a depth.

From accounts I’ve read, it seems the core drill holes found in AE show a tool width average of about 1mm so how does that quantify with Stocks plainly 8mm looking tube?

Your response to the fact they used STEEL to extract the core:

Any wedge would certainly work. Including wood, which has been used for millennia to break stone, and was used in the limestone quarries at Giza.

Stocks already had copper chisels on hand , right there in the film, but didn’t use them to break out the core. WHY?
Because it’s NOT RESISTANT ENOUGH to do it , that’s why.
They just thought they would scientifically use a material the AE didn’t have .
Flawed again.
Yes wood wedges and copper may work on LIMESTONE but granite is another challenge . PROVE a granite core can be knocked out by copper , because Stocks doesn’t.
I’m sure I’ve read there are wood wedge holes at Aswan quarry from a post- AE time, and the wooden wedge method failed to break the Granite. I’ll look it up.

If the AE core drills are 1mm thick as the forensics show ( there’s that word again, Harte, forensics) then that means that after the required depth is reached , and it is now time to extract the core, one is left with a 1mm gap between the bedrock and the core itself. My opinion is that it would be FAR harder to extract the full core from a 1mm gap width successfully than with Stocks 8mm gap and a steel wedge.
And you claim people like Foerster and Dunn are BS artists who’ve made a career from BS, you need to look at little closer at those you hold up as ‘non BS artists’.

Still waiting for a worth while response to:
A) the Petrie core with continuous spiral cut
B) RESULTANT edge artifacts where large cutting tools have created resultant corners.
C) a satisfactory response to my lathe answer regarding tooling, THAT YOU ASKED FOR whether granite shards or precious stones.
D) obvious repeatability of Bent Pyramid casing stones.




a reply to: Harte

a reply to: Harte

a reply to: bluesfreak


Why don’t you just start your own thread instead of hijackking one? Your quips about the technology of AE has absolutely nothing to do with finds in Turkey.

I did apologise earlier, surely no one on any thread should feel unable to chime in when another talks sh*te about a subject they specialise in.
In my case machining and tooling.
All threads go off on tangents and return , been going in here for donkeys years, this one had already gone onto South American stonework before I interjected on Harte’s sweeping assessments.
if the mods want to move me and Harte’s dialogue into another thread I’m all for it...
Suppose you’re gonna tell Harte off too, if he replies to me??!! !
a reply to: peter vlar

... and by the way, you’ve given Harte the perfect excuse not to answer , we’ll see if he wants a telling off... a reply to: peter vlar

Watch out Bluesfreak, you are close to being the target of slander and finger pointing. That's what happens these days if you oppose any of the elders that still decide to stick around this site.

Harte is an retired Math teacher. So watch out. His expertise in number crunching gives him all the answers.

Bluesfreak, I appreciate your input. Its nice to hear an alternative idea.

!! Slander!! Im not bothered about rudeness, doesn’t get me going. Im a machinist, patience is part of it, if you don’t have it naturally, step away from the machines!!
My maths is fine due to my line of work, so not bothered there either, but sometimes feel number crunching can fit any argument any way, so unless it’s specifically needed, can be superficial.
Everything I’ve conversed with Harte over has a sound engineering reasoning and logic behind it, to simply dismiss is the tool of the Skeptic, a being who has already made up their mind and shuts out potentials.
Being open minded is crucial to furthering the knowledge of anything.

If I was closed-minded at work, I wouldn’t/couldn’t have made half the things I have!
We HAVE to translate what we are like now mentally back to the AE’s in this instance . We are the same beings. We have experts , they had experts. That’s for sure when we look at their mighty achievements .

All the things I’ve proposed could be done with their technology of the time.

There ARE anomalies in stonework ,particularly the RESULTANT edges that I urge anyone to investigate; there ARE confusing tooling striations that point to large circular saws, although none appearing in artwork, the forensics show it’s existence .
There ARE objects that show lathe methodology,
There ARE spiral tooling cuts that infer very hard tooling.

It must be debated, not dismissed under a blanket term of ‘fringe’.
There are REAL engineers who have spotted things archaeologists wouldn’t .
That’s in NO WAY a bad reflection on the archaeologist; it’s just not their field of expertise.
Many disciplines helping each other, collating is the only way these arguments will be settled.
And that’s a good thing.
Unless it throws up some awkward questions...

Ps-what is the ‘fringe’? The fringe of what ? Academia? Knowledge? Ideas? The fringe of what is acceptable? I don’t get this label?
Is it to put down the lone researcher, the guys who go out on their own, fund themselves, may be an expert in say tooling or masonry etc ?

These guys are no different from the pioneers of Egyptology itself.

And a lot of those original guys looted, misled and mis-appropriated a lot of stuff.
All the modern guys Harte etc dismiss are simply videoing interesting objects/methods and talking about it ! ?!?!!

If we don’t discuss forensic possibilities , whichever way the truth swings, we’ll never truly understand these people and how they achieved so much.
It is really that simple and logical.
a reply to: Triton1128

Yep, knew Harte wouldn’t reply, and if he did , it wouldn’t be the detail that I require for an engineering debate, as he doesn’t have the knowledge.

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Wolfenz

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: Wolfenz

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: LedermanStudio

Got to have been some kind of builder/technologically superior race that predates history.

But can we handle that?

Scientist cant even Handle PUMA PUNKU

It's the Fringe that can't handle Pumapunku.
Scientists have been handing it for over half a century.

The Non-Mystery of Pumapunku

Harte

So you place a Skeptoid Brian Dunning Website for a Reference !!

Now thats Funny!

The Man that Said ... if Regulate you food intake you wont produce Feces ! ( Take a Dump )
yeah he said that .. on Joe Rogan youtube Show ..


He constantly contradicts himself ...

Find a better Source Harte PLEASE... Someone Legit ...

in that Article ...

When you hear that an elephant is carved there, it certainly does give you pause, because an elephant is hard to mistake. However, when you look at a picture of what's claimed to be the elephant, this becomes less surprising. Tiwanaku art was highly stylized, much like what we're accustomed to seeing from the Maya or the Aztecs. It's actually the heads of two crested Andean Condors facing each other neck to neck, and their necks and crests constitute what some have compared to the tusks and ears of an elephant's face. The image of the toxodon is known only from rough sketches of a sculpture discovered in 1934, and so it's a drawing of indirect evidence of an artist's interpretation of an unknown subject. It looks to me like a generic quadruped. Pig, dog, rat, toxodon, name it.

Well..
Bones of elephant ancestor unearthed: Meet the gomphothere
www.sciencedaily.com...

Mexico finds 15,000-year-old 'mammoth traps'

Are you prepared to back up your claim that Tiwanaku is 15,000 years old now?

Or will you ignore that as well?

Harte

Sorry for the late reply well earlier Archaeologist and scientist claim that PUMA PUNKU could be 17,000 years old .. and why not ? seeing that the not so Recent of Ruin of Gobekli Tepe is 11,000 years old...

what Amazes me that you think that Primitive INCA's that use only Rope Knots for a written Language " built Designed Created " structured Building Material Pieces that interconnect like a Lego set , Mass Produced like it was in a Assembly Line.. Tiwanaco is what they had Built way after Puma Punku .. but for PUMA Punku there no way in HELL they were able too do such a feat .. by themselves with out help... So tell me of the Pre Designed Structures in Boliva resembling PUMA PUNKU ... I see nothing .. Yet anything that comes close too the PUMA PUNKU is in the OLD World EGYPT , AXON Ethiopia , UR ( Sumerian Assyrian IRAQ , Greece, & Rome Similarities of Hieroglyphs Body Burials Pyramids from the Aztec Mayan Culture is Like the Egyptian & Sumerian Form even some their Gods have the same Attributes , Virtues and Titles .. yet Ocean Apart and claimed Time Frame Apart ... we went many time down this Road Harte .. eventually you get there HARTE . on that OLD Stoned Roman ROAD ..

originally posted by: [post=24911786]Wolfenz

Sorry for the late reply well earlier Archaeologist and scientist claim that PUMA PUNKU could be 17,000 years old .. and why not ? seeing that the not so Recent of Ruin of Gobekli Tepe is 11,000 years old...

That was Posnansky who was not an archaeologist by training. He actually estimated the age was 11,000-17,000 based based on comparisons to geological eras and archaeoastronomy. He didn't seem to realize just how disturbed the site was and the angles and rocks he used had been disturbed.

en.wikipedia.org...

Later real archaeology corrected the record.

You can read about how he did his guesstimate here:

Posnansky, Arthur (1910). Tihuanacu e islas del Sol y de la Luna (Titicaca y Koati). La Paz.
Posnansky, Arthur (1945). Tihuanacu, the Cradle of American Man. I–II. Translated by James F. Sheaver. New York: JJ Augustin.

structured Building Material Pieces that interconnect like a Lego set , Mass Produced like it was in a Assembly Line..

They are all slightly different and they don't fit together like lego they stack like normal rocks - its decorations just make it appear that way. Go take a look at them on youtube or other images.

there no way in HELL they were able too do such a feat

Your personal incredulity isn't evidence - the evidence shows us the local folks did it.

Stacking rocks is not hard - it just takes experience, effort and some organizational skills which the Tiwanaku certainly had having built a small empire. When the Inca conquered the Tiwanaku they made them their masons - why because they had a tradition of extreme skill and ability.

Yet anything that comes close too the PUMA PUNKU is in the OLD World EGYPT

REALLY haven't been to the Pantheon have you now? Or the Parthenon?

The really good stuff in Egypt was built thousands of years before PP.