Turkey is purchasing Sams from Russia should they be allowed to buy the F-35

With the recent security agreement between Turkey and Russia I believe we should give them their down payment back on the F-35 if they wanted to purchase since they are obtaining Best in Class of the Russian surface-to-air missile systems. It seems imprudent to allow them to have f-35s that they will then be able to test various radar systems for the Russians on.

a reply to: machineintelligence

last i've heard, they're not getting F-35s. not a chance in hell.

but i'm sure Zaphod will explain it better.

a reply to: machineintelligence

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon would consider allowing Turkey to rejoin the F-35 program only if the Russian-made S-400 air defense system is completely removed from Turkish soil, meaning the government in Ankara could not simply keep the systems deactivated in warehouses, the Pentagon’s top official said Wednesday.

link

Looks like it's already been talked about, and they can decide between one or the other.

Personally, I say they shouldn't get F-35s regaurdless... They've shown they're not to be trusted.

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: machineintelligence

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon would consider allowing Turkey to rejoin the F-35 program only if the Russian-made S-400 air defense system is completely removed from Turkish soil, meaning the government in Ankara could not simply keep the systems deactivated in warehouses, the Pentagon’s top official said Wednesday.

link

Looks like it's already been talked about, and they can decide between one or the other.

Personally, I say they shouldn't get F-35s regaurdless... They've shown they're not to be trusted.

I agree. At this point, it's irrelevant who they buy their missile defense system from.

They (Ergoden) can not be trusted.

The F-35 deal is dead. The first two aircraft were at Luke, and have been grounded and their pilots and ground crews had their security clearances suspended and were ordered out of the country at the end of July. The aircraft in the next lot for Turkey will still be produced but either the US will fold them into our purchase, or another customer will get them. Several customers want to add aircraft and new customers have expressed interest.

Contracts with Turkish suppliers end next year, and Lockheed has been in talks with new suppliers to take over the parts being produced in Turkey. There may be some minor disruption in production, but I doubt it'll be even noticed. That's a lot of business to take on and companies will be jumping at the opportunity.

a reply to: machineintelligence

Imprudent is one way to put it.

Much more politely than I'd have put it...so we'll go with yours.

Erdogan has proven to be less than trustworthy as an ally...in no way should Turkey be able to purchase F35's, or anything else for that matter.

Going a step further, NATO should review their standing within NATO.

a reply to: Zaphod58

It is my understanding that Turkey's contribution was only a few items involving landing gear. Not that working landing gear isn't important, but it is mechanical in nature (as opposed to highly sensitive and classifies electronics, and stealth tech), and won't present a problem, other than the cost will likely go up some.

When you are talking about that kind of price tag, what's another half million?

a reply to: Mach2

Turkish components. Turkey builds everything from the center fuselage to skin panels to landing gear. The center fuselage work will probably initially be picked up by Northrop until another supplier can be found, as will the other work.

The biggest hit is going to be in sustainment. Turkey was going to build their own F135 engines, and provide Depot services.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Mach2

Turkish components. Turkey builds everything from the center fuselage to skin panels to landing gear. The center fuselage work will probably initially be picked up by Northrop until another supplier can be found, as will the other work.

The biggest hit is going to be in sustainment. Turkey was going to build their own F135 engines, and provide Depot services.

I stand corrected.

Are the the sole supplier of these items? It would, on the surface, to so heavily rely on an "iffy" ally like Ergoden, for critical parts.

Edit: after some research I see that it is mainly landing gear components they are sole providers of. Yes they do other things, but there are multiple providers for most items.

That makes more sense, than relying on one supplier.

The question is, what is America's true policy in relation to Turkey? Firstly if America is opposed to Turkey's actions against the Kurds etc. then why are they selling them Lockheed F16s etc? Secondly the fact Turkey uses American Weaponry specifically fight jets, proves the Pentagon is in full support of Turkey's military actions, and more so that in support are probably secretly supporting there actions against ahe Kurds, and probably gave them the go ahead to do so, for if Turkey where to begin a military conflict against the Kurds in the middle East without American backing, the Americans would deem it an act of war against them, just as they seemed German aggression in the late 30s as an act of war, if not they'd have atleaset deemed it on a par with Iraqs attacks against the Kurds, considering the military inmpirahbtcr if the middle East in modern warfare between the old empirical morons. So the question is, what is America's real policy.do the support the Kurds or the Turks or the Syrians then why are they sell them weapons etc, and if they are in support of Turkish aggression against both Syria and the Kurds and Turkey is found to be violating the rules of war(the irony of the term) then the American joint chiefs of staff are guilty or complicit in war crimes(as if they're not already) and should be brought to trial.

a reply to: Mach2

For the most part the program has done well as far as suppliers go. There are very few components that are single supplier, and I don't think any of the truly critical systems are single supplier.

a reply to: EXONEX

you did not know that Turkey is a NATO member??


if the USA went to war with Turkey, by Treaty we would have to war with ourselves.


well we are but not a shooting war, yet.

F-16 are old tech, not a real security concern like an F-35 would be.

Turkey will never get F-35's until Endrogen is gone, and someone more US friendly is in place.

originally posted by: thedigirati
a reply to: EXONEX

you did not know that Turkey is a NATO member??


if the USA went to war with Turkey, by Treaty we would have to war with ourselves.


well we are but not a shooting war, yet.

F-16 are old tech, not a real security concern like an F-35 would be.

Turkey will never get F-35's until Endrogen is gone, and someone more US friendly is in place.

On paper, yes Turkey is a NATO member. But if they ever came to blows with (let's say) Greece, you know whose side we'd take in a heartbeat.

Also, That F-35 deal should never have been approved. Turkey has been cozying up to Russia for years now. It's a given Russia would get full access to the jet about five minutes after it landed in Ankara.

My personal opinion: We shouldn't sell any advanced weapons to a guy that brags about starting a new caliphate.

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

originally posted by: thedigirati
a reply to: EXONEX

you did not know that Turkey is a NATO member??


if the USA went to war with Turkey, by Treaty we would have to war with ourselves.


well we are but not a shooting war, yet.

F-16 are old tech, not a real security concern like an F-35 would be.

Turkey will never get F-35's until Endrogen is gone, and someone more US friendly is in place.

On paper, yes Turkey is a NATO member. But if they ever came to blows with (let's say) Greece, you know whose side we'd take in a heartbeat.

Also, That F-35 deal should never have been approved. Turkey has been cozying up to Russia for years now. It's a given Russia would get full access to the jet about five minutes after it landed in Ankara.

Gosh now that you say that

who was in the WhiteHouse when it was approved??

wasn't that before OMB came along??

what else did that person do inthe same time period

Oh yeah, something about pallets of cash and night times flights I think..

but that was then and we have to ONLY deal with the OMB of now I am told...

Lockheed has already begun signing new suppliers to replace Turkish businesses. Total cost to the program will be $500-600M.

a reply to: machineintelligence

Turkey just seems more and more like they don't belong on the NATO side of things.

Maybe its not uncommon for NATO members to buy weaponry from Russia - I'm not familiar, but it seems like a conflict of interests to my uninitiated mind.

originally posted by: thedigirati

originally posted by: AndyFromMichigan

originally posted by: thedigirati
a reply to: EXONEX

you did not know that Turkey is a NATO member??


if the USA went to war with Turkey, by Treaty we would have to war with ourselves.


well we are but not a shooting war, yet.

F-16 are old tech, not a real security concern like an F-35 would be.

Turkey will never get F-35's until Endrogen is gone, and someone more US friendly is in place.

On paper, yes Turkey is a NATO member. But if they ever came to blows with (let's say) Greece, you know whose side we'd take in a heartbeat.

Also, That F-35 deal should never have been approved. Turkey has been cozying up to Russia for years now. It's a given Russia would get full access to the jet about five minutes after it landed in Ankara.

Gosh now that you say that

who was in the WhiteHouse when it was approved??

wasn't that before OMB came along??

what else did that person do inthe same time period

Oh yeah, something about pallets of cash and night times flights I think..

but that was then and we have to ONLY deal with the OMB of now I am told...

Pardon my ignorance, but can you clarify? Sounds interesting, but you're kind of speaking in riddles.

OMB = Office of Management & Budget (formed in 1970.) Are you referring to a President priot to that and something about pallets of cash (bribes?) being related to this somehow?

originally posted by: machineintelligence
With the recent security agreement between Turkey and Russia I believe we should give them their down payment back on the F-35 if they wanted to purchase since they are obtaining Best in Class of the Russian surface-to-air missile systems. It seems imprudent to allow them to have f-35s that they will then be able to test various radar systems for the Russians on.

If they aren't allowed to buy the F-35 then they will buy the SU-27 or some other Russian fighter.

American loses out on the money, and it has less say in what they do with their aircraft. If turkey had the F-35 conditions could be laced on the sale, and they could be used to leverage what turkey does. For example, no support of US foreign policy = no sale of spare party.

For Russia this is a win win situation. They either get money or intel. Putin is laughing whatever the situation is.

a reply to: AaarghZombies
I for one have long questioned the relationship of the US and Turkey and I am old enough to remember the discussion about bringing them into NATO. The US wanted missiles close to targets in the USSR but when that threat folded the nukes positioned there should have quietly been withdrawn. A draw down of the nuclear arsenal there would have been a lot better situation than we have today. The US actually has more common ground with Russia today than we did during the cold war but the suspicions run so deep and with the globalist dead set on keeping the Russians who are nationalist out of the club we have not been able to develop the trust required to work with the Russians in any meaningful way. So we find ourselves where we are today. The longer you wait to resolve a situation the more untenable it often becomes.