Strands of Experience & Encounter - Mysticism in Reverie. Reincarnation Integrated?

Hi folks,

Usually when I start a thread here, I am set on a certain topic, set on my belief about the topic, often with a strong opinion regarding some aspect of the topic, and also quite often I am willing to become argumentative to 'hold the line' regarding that belief & opinion. This thread is created differently, in that I am more inclined here to ask questions of people who may be in a position to answer me in ways that will be most appreciated. I have begun to question my own presentation of myself, and to see the errors of my ways to some degree. I don't believe I have been particularly 'wrong' in many cases, and I am certain that my thoughts were 'right' in many cases; however, I accept that others have every right to think I was wrong (!!) & can only hope that we are able to see eye to eye on the most important matters which cross our path, here in the world of woo, on the fringes of society, sanity & reality...

I will add a quick header concerning my overall pattern of belief, faith, my oath, my commitment to Christ & the church of believers from all denominations who share a genuine connection through the Spirit, or those with sincere hearts who are from outside the faith, in other religious strands & patterns of belief, other types of worship, those agnostic people who respect belief & hold back judgement when someone describes a strand of belief or encounter with the Divine as they perceive that Being 'to be'. I also greatly respect men & women who are dedicated to science, or to industry in a design or mechanical, engineering sense - those who are capable, who order our society & generate ways for people to live, breathe & interact freely throughout the free world. I greatly respect leaders, those who are capable of pulling all the strands together & forging a path for the nations. I greatly respect those in the shadows, who make our world safer than it would otherwise be, who manage & handle the intrigues & deal firmly with the roguery of agents with bad intentions who seek to upset the order of things in ways that are beyond the pale. I know the world isn't perfect, and that even with the best intentions of the best people, much evil slips through the net & causes ruination of many types to be visited upon innocents - but I trust in the natural justice of the universal laws of conscience to deal with the persons responsible when their time is up, if not before. I don't necessarily believe in an eternity of Hell, but I do believe that justice is served cold, and lessons must be learnt before it is possible to move on. I may be wrong on matters such as these, but I remain agnostic towards such strands of belief.

On a related note, I will start with a thought which I meditated on quite a bit recently, that being the nature of the birth, life, death, ascension/discipline, and potentially rebirth thereafter.

I have been recently re-visiting my earlier research on near death experiences, a topic of great interest to me for a number of reasons. I have, in many cases, seen a wonderful confirmation of some of my most sacred beliefs, regarding the infinite love & mercy of God, the glorious & beautiful nature of the afterlife in many cases, the tutoring of souls, the instruction regarding a return to life on Earth, and the varied experiences of children who recall former lives, sometimes in wonderful depth of confirmed details. I had been pondering a matter which doesn't particularly vex me, as I know that the infinitely merciful & benevolent God has all things under control - but I had often had a measure of confusion concerning the difference between the experience of someone who is 'born of water & Spirit', in the church with gifts of charismata, and someone who is not in the church, but operates here on Earth in a wonderfully warm & loving way. When that person passes away, some/many folks in the church would consider them 'unsaved', even though they were a big-hearted person who confirmed their love for family, friends & neighbours in often committed & caring ways. I get to thinking that such a person is one of those who is spoken of in the scriptures as having the law of God "..[W]ritten on their hearts", rather than on tablets of stone (which would refer to written materials of many types in the modern age). I also often consider that such people, and indeed many throughout all continents, are those descendents which were spoken of in one of the key blessings that God gave to Abraham, stating that the faithful would see a blessing on their descedents, "..[T]o a thousand generations" meaning that in all sorts of ways (for the world holds all sorts of people in all sorts of situations) these descendents would be interacting in the world with a naturally applied supernatural blessing on their lives, perhaps helping them through circumstances & relationships to become that warm & loving person. It's perhaps more the case that those who are in the church, having been "born again" of water & Spirit, are those who for whatever reason were actually living without that blessing upon their lives, or for whom some situation has developed in natural terms which has devastated their experience of life somehow, and all of these possible reasons are what has made us spiritually 'sick', in need of "[T]he great physician" which is Jesus, the Living Word, who is able to heal & restore the broken-hearted & the spiritual cripple. If we refer to ourselves as 'saved' then we should be very careful about labelling others as 'unsaved' - God spoke a blessing over billions of people when He gave the varied promises to Abraham, and certainly they were/are not all Christians, because to think that would be silly. We should instead reverence what God is doing/ has done in the world to solve the problem of evil by blessing the world with those who want to do good, in whatever small or great way it is in their nature, power & will to accomplish. We who are in the church are saved from ourselves firstly, and from the difficulties & spiritual circumstance of a 'fallen' world secondly, in my humble opinion. I believe that God has no unction to deal favourably only with people who are born again, though certainly He does deal favourably with us through His infinite Grace, which is precisely defined as being 'undeserved favour'.

My summary thought, when meditating & at times (Over a period of a few years) slipping into a mystic reverie, in addition to research, and even dreams which have symbolically pointed to the answers, I have found myself converging on a solution which handles the birth, life, death, ascension/discipline, and potentially rebirth - in a way which feels satisfying to both my logic & my heart, and I would like to get your opinion on it, if you feel that you have points to make either for or against my conception.

I hold that all souls are equally in receipt of divine grace when they are born, but that over time the circumstance & inward nature of that person can sway their life one way or the other, either towards or away from that grace. Where we end up in respect of the purely natural state of our humanity, without being born of water & Spirit, can be any position on a spectrum between general wellbeing, and general chaos.

What happens with respect to the machinations which unfold & lead us into whatever place we land upon that spectrum, could be conceived of as the action of blessing or cursing (holding in mind that there are a great many things about spiritual mechanics that we have no idea of) which is described in scripture:

Deuteronomy 30:19

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live..

Now bear in mind that the intervention of God in human affairs is a potent, powerfully mysterious thing, and we can't get into it yet as it requires much preparation in the build-up. However, we can perhaps agree on the basics – God exists, blessing exists, curses can come into operation through spiritual mechanics which we aren't directly discussing here. The afterlife exists, ascension to Heaven exists, and clinging to the wrong path or clinging to illusions of happiness leads to discipline & discomfort, which perhaps is what we would consider a sort of hell. Not only this, but reincarnation exists, and there is quite ample evidence from multiple studies that it really does exist. There is much testimony to suggest that between lives there is a period of tutoring & rejuvenation, but this is not always present (or remembered easily – often only in fragments, in the conscious surface mind of the experiencer). Moving into the church history & essence today, there is a tradition & a discipline of being baptised in water, symbolising cleansing, and there is baptism in Spirit, often achieved by the laying on of hands, with the scene becoming a picture of community, humility brother/sisterhood before the great & wondrous power of God. The gifts of charismata exist, and often provide evidence of the action of God's Spirit in the world today, with power to heal & power to deliver a person from great psychological & spiritual difficulty, through deliverance. Many other gifts of charismata exist, but those are two of the most potent that we can perceive easily when they occur, perhaps we could add gifts of wisdom & knowledge, which can reveal (appropriately, not intrusively) things of the heart that a person is ready to bring to God, if only they had the opportunity – these gifts make it possible for one believer to know the heart of another, and to minister healing & deliverance in the wake of that revelation.

If the above paragraph represents our base assumptions of the general pattern of human experience in the spiritual sense, then why do church people often insist, in the face of much evidence to the contrary* that only church people are 'saved', and those who are outside the church are 'unsaved' & thus go to an eternal inferno of pain & suffering? Because of mistranslations, and misapplications, of the scripture, practice & belief of Christian tradition.

* (the testimonies of near-death experiencers who are genuine - bear in mind that there are some notable deliberate deceptions which have been propagated by insincere & sometimes wicked persons seeking to disrupt the flow of positive spiritual growth in Western civilisation)

What we actually observe is that the multitude of persons who are experiencing near-death states testify that they are loved, accepted, forgiven, tutored, and generally cared for at the time they pass over into death. When they return, they have often been advised of a reason, or they have chosen to go back for their own reasons, or they simply return with newfound love, faith & assurance of the wonder & glory of the ascended afterlife.

If people who are churched & in receipt of the unmerited favour of God, and they allow themselves to be led through life by the Spirit “...[L]ike the wind, which blows wherever it will”, then yes, I believe they do ascend to Heaven on their death. I have no questions about that, it is clear & straightforward to understand & believe when you observe the evidence. However, what happens if an unchurched, not particularly bad person, who is generally good but not quite 'schooled' enough in the art of living a life of love & grace? It is my relatively firm belief now, after meditating as described, that such people are automatically accepted, loved, forgiven – but they are sent back, into a new life on Earth, with new circumstances & new opportunities, to become everything they are able to become in the power of love, grace & acceptance. I also hold that such people can gradually be brought further & further along the path to God's full redemptive power in a series of lives lived in accordance with the natural laws of conscience, love & grace. Ultimately they are living a life under the blessings which were promised to the descendants of those who lived a life of love fully for God, born of water & Spirit, until that point at which they cross over having achieved everything God wanted for them to achieve. This is perhaps the central point of my opening question, regarding whether it is possible for people to be brought closer to the point of divine redemptive power through the course of several lives on Earth, until they intersect with circumstances & opportunities for action which brings them directly into contact with God, able to ascend dully once all is said & done.

What are your thoughts? I make these points because of my certitude at the reality of reincarnation & near-death experiences, which had seemed theologically disjointed alongside the doctrines of being 'saved'' or 'unsaved/fallen' which is often held vehemently by members of the worldwide church, even if they are generally wonderful people who live lives of love, directly in the service of God. I had to find a way to reconcile the reality (as I see it) of reincarnation & powerful near-death experiences, alongside doctrines as described which seem to demand that we believe in an absolute manner otherwise we are doomed, somehow. This never sat well with me, even though in all other respects I was a generally 'normal' Christian. I have mystic experience through the Spirit, and I believe that by seeking to answer the hard questions, trusting Him for ongoing revelations we are helped to build up a more concrete picture, attained by the involvement of “the Holy Spirit, who will lead you into all truth”. It has taken a long time for me to integrate these beliefs in a way which jives with my Christian faith & experience, but I believe that I have now settled on a model of 'how it works', and indeed I see these beliefs as being representative in a 'model of best fit' regarding matters of life, death & rebirth.

I would value your thoughts, and hope that perhaps this written essay has helped you to agree inwardly that there is a pattern which fits all the testimonies & varied evidences into a model which suits Christianity equally well as the other major religions which openly believe in reincarnation..

Thanks for taking the time to read through it all!

Best wishes,



FITO.

Yep, kinda neat plowing deep

It's not Christianity, though my brother....it's a relationship that has no laws....you don't have to do I or change anything.....but reincarnation loses it's draw.....and you won't die.....you and your household.

That part about no laws......we admit we can't do it.....we willk sin.......Paul said He sinned.....said he had a war in his head.....

But just faith alone counts as righteousness and Jesus gives nudges twice a year I swear......like kids ya don't have to worry about.....what's that worth....

Just believing that Jesus didn't do what He did for nothing.....did it for us

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
This is perhaps the central point of my opening question, regarding whether it is possible for people to be brought closer to the point of divine redemptive power through the course of several lives on Earth, until they intersect with circumstances & opportunities for action which brings them directly into contact with God, able to ascend dully once all is said & done.

What are your thoughts? I make these points because of my certitude at the reality of reincarnation & near-death experiences, which had seemed theologically disjointed alongside the doctrines of being 'saved'' or 'unsaved/fallen' which is often held vehemently by members of the worldwide church, even if they are generally wonderful people who live lives of love, directly in the service of God. I had to find a way to reconcile the reality (as I see it) of reincarnation & powerful near-death experiences, alongside doctrines as described which seem to demand that we believe in an absolute manner otherwise we are doomed, somehow. This never sat well with me, even though in all other respects I was a generally 'normal' Christian. I have mystic experience through the Spirit, and I believe that by seeking to answer the hard questions, trusting Him for ongoing revelations we are helped to build up a more concrete picture, attained by the involvement of “the Holy Spirit, who will lead you into all truth”. It has taken a long time for me to integrate these beliefs in a way which jives with my Christian faith & experience, but I believe that I have now settled on a model of 'how it works', and indeed I see these beliefs as being representative in a 'model of best fit' regarding matters of life, death & rebirth.

At 55 years old, I've spent over 20 years pondering just such questions -

- I simply cannot believe a loving God (one who considers Himself to be our Father) would send anyone to hell...

...So, I think you have come up with quite a viable theory, as reincarnation makes much more sense than 'eternal punishment'!