The Hourglass Universe and Black Holes

Thinking about this some more it occurred to me that if all the energy sucked into a black hole is exiting out the white hole, how would the black hole maintain its mass or grow in size? I'm thinking maybe the "quantum tunnel" is acting like a bottleneck, it may only open at certain moments to let a large amount of matter through. If negative energy is theorized to open up the throat of a wormhole, perhaps it only opens enough for matter to pass through when negative matter falls into the white hole side.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

No. They understand what causes it, and that's matter falling into it. What that don't understand is where that matter came from as they didn't see it near the BH.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I think they are not holes, they are spheres with such gravity they can attract photons and other sub atomic particles, letting go only radiation and sub particles too small for the gravity they have. Probably the bigger they are the smaller the sub atomic particles they let go and the higher the radiation they exhaust.

Just a guess.

I read about a genius names James Sidis who a long time ago predicted parts of space with reverse time and geometry. It really seems like we live in a really complex universe that's almost incomprehensible but we keep at it!

originally posted by: ziplock9000
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

No. They understand what causes it, and that's matter falling into it. What that don't understand is where that matter came from as they didn't see it near the BH.

Actually they did see matter called "G2" approaching the black hole in 2014 and were expecting it to brighten. So one possibility the scientists mention in the paper is it could be G2 finally showing us something, just later than we expected:

Unprecedented variability of Sgr A* in NIR

Potential physical origins of Sgr A*'s unprecedented brightness may be from changes in the accretion-flow as a result of the star S0-2's closest passage to the black hole in 2018 or from a delayed reaction to the approach of the dusty object G2 in 2014. Additional multi-wavelength observations will be necessary to both monitor Sgr A* for potential state changes and to constrain the physical processes responsible for its current variability.

Here's an article talking about an expected brightening of the black hole which hadn't been seen yet as of the article date, but maybe it didn't turn out to be such a boring encounter after all?

The Story of a Boring Encounter with a Black Hole

G2, an object initially thought to be a gas cloud, was expected to make its closest approach to the 4.6-million-solar-mass Sgr A* in 2014. At the pericenter of its orbit, G2 was predicted to pass as close as 36 light-hours from the black hole.

This close brush with such a massive black hole was predicted to tear G2 apart, causing much of its material to accrete onto Sgr A*. It was thought that this process would temporarily increase the accretion rate onto the black hole relative to its normal background accretion rate, causing Sgr A*’s luminosity to increase for a time.

So they were actually expecting a luminosity increase! But maybe they got the timing off for some reason, or something else is going on, which further observations might reveal.

If it does turn out to have something to do with G2, just later than expected, I wouldn't be surprised. There's so much clutter in the vicinity of the black hole, I think it's hard to get clarity on what's really going on in there when only certain wavelengths make it out of the clutter.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Actually they did see matter called "G2" approaching the black hole in 2014 and were expecting it to brighten. So one possibility the scientists mention in the paper is it could be G2 finally showing us something, just later than we expected:

This is the gas cloud I mentioned near the end of my opening post. If that were the cause I'd like to know what mechanism caused a delayed reaction of over 5 years. It seems quite implausible, probably even less plausible than the answer involving the star which passed by Sgr A* over a year ago. It seems like some new theories will be required to explain this however it is solved.

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Actually they did see matter called "G2" approaching the black hole in 2014 and were expecting it to brighten. So one possibility the scientists mention in the paper is it could be G2 finally showing us something, just later than we expected:

This is the gas cloud I mentioned near the end of my opening post. If that were the cause I'd like to know what mechanism caused a delayed reaction of over 5 years. It seems quite implausible, probably even less plausible than the answer involving the star which passed by Sgr A* over a year ago. It seems like some new theories will be required to explain this however it is solved.

I don't think you read the article I linked, which says G2 can NOT be solely a gas cloud!

It's likely a composite of a gas cloud and something not a gas cloud, and the 2017 article even said the part of G2 that's not a gas cloud could still cause an emission after 2017: "any future emission detected should no longer be from the cloud, but only from the compact core or dusty stellar object."

The Story of a Boring Encounter with a Black Hole

G2 cannot be solely a gas cloud. Instead, two components are likely needed: an extended, cold, low-mass gas cloud responsible for most of the emission before G2 approached pericenter, and a very compact component such as a dusty stellar object that dominates the emission observed since pericenter.

The authors argue that any future emission detected should no longer be from the cloud, but only from the compact core or dusty stellar object.

So when I look at that information in context, it doesn't even seem that surprising if G2 caused an emission, since the article says the part that's not a gas cloud could still cause an emission in the future, and here we are in the future of that article.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Ok that seems more reasonable, but I'm still highly skeptical that this compact object would exist and evade our detection. As I understand it we have a fairly solid idea of all the large objects orbiting the core and we have simulations to predict how they will move in the future. Our observations and simulations don't appear to show any large objects falling into Sgr A*. After reading that article I'm more convinced G2 could be the reason but I'm still skeptical of their explanation because it seems fairly ad hoc, I was almost expecting the article to say the object must be made of dark matter. Also I still think there's a very high chance the Hourglass Universe model is correct regardless of what the solution is. What I'm less certain of is how black holes and wormholes work, there's a very good chance that natural worm holes do not form in nature, but I find the quantum tunnel argument compelling.

I'll be damned if I can find it now but I read a short sci-fi story once where the premise was centred around humanity in the near future finally creating technology that could let them get very close to a black hole to analyse exactly what was going on. And when they did so, they found that black holes were created by a hugely evolved (by millions of years) civilisation in another universe as a means of dumping waste matter. Our universe was nothing more than a dumping ground and they were unaware it was populated.

This is an interesting premise.

We don't know if there is a black hole in the center of the universe but we know there is one in the center of our Galaxy. So shouldn't it be called the hourglass Galaxy?
And then shouldn't we see other black holes in the center of other Galaxies as white holes or are they all aligned the way we only see the dark side?

Does anyone know where in the sky the black hole of our galaxy is located?

Is the black hole considered in astrology?

What will happen if the sun and the black hole eclipse?

I hope someone can answer my question, don't mind the last one...

Sincerely NoClue

originally posted by: NoClue
Does anyone know where in the sky the black hole of our galaxy is located?

Look for the Sagittarius constellation (Teapot). The black hole (galactic center) is above the arrow tip (teapot nose). You won't see much though. earthsky.org...

Is the black hole considered in astrology?

Not much into astrology, but I highly doubt it.

What will happen if the sun and the black hole eclipse?

Nothing. It is ~25000 light years away from the sun.

a reply to: moebius

Thank you very much for your concise answers!

I should have asked, did the sun ever eclipse the black hole in recorded history, or do we know when it will happen?

Sincerely NoClue

originally posted by: NoClue
a reply to: moebius

Thank you very much for your concise answers!

I should have asked, did the sun ever eclipse the black hole in recorded history, or do we know when it will happen?

Sincerely NoClue

No idea why you're asking, but the idea of an eclipse involves visible light.

The black hole itself doesn't emit any light, visible or otherwise.

There's an accretion disk around the black hole which does emit varying frequencies of light, but they are blocked by dust in the area so visible light from that never made it as far as our sun as far as I know.

Astronomers have to make observations in wavelengths that are invisible to human eyes that can pass through the dust, like infrared and radio waves. They can't see the region in visible wavelengths which makes it a little challenging to figure out exactly what's going on with limited data (hence the present uncertainty about whether G2 was involved in the luminosity increase).

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Why not adress the question?

Why going on about what you already explained in the thread?

I thought eclipsing meant any two objects beeing congruent on a line of sights.
Hope that helps for you to understand what i was asking.
So did the sun ever eclipse the black hole in recorded history, or do we know when it will happen?


Sincerely NoClue

originally posted by: NoClue
So did the sun ever eclipse the black hole in recorded history, or do we know when it will happen?

Exact alignment of earth, sun, and galactic center apparently happens every 4 million years.
multiverse.ssl.berkeley.edu...

But that is kinda off topic I think.

a reply to: moebius

I apologize for the thread drift.
Thanks allot for the information.

NC