Impact of Simonian beliefs on Christianity

a reply to: [post=24507049]glend[/post

Its very possible that the early church integrated both teachings in the hope of increasing patronage. But in doing so created a hybrid religion that is neither one or the other. It really needs be asked if a church that adorns itself in Egyptian paraphernalia (St. Peter's Basilica Obelisk and sun dial etc) are preaching the teachings of Jesus or that of Simon Magus, Sun God, RA. A teaching that allows the lawless to achieve heaven by doing nothing but believing its so.

I do not understand your point here. Simon Magus was a separate issue from this episode between Peter and Paul as shown in Galatians 2:15. Neither are connected to the other.

As far as the tradition of the flight of Simon Magus is concerned there in no clear evidence of how he died. One tradition tells us that after his fall from the air that his broken leg/s were attended very poorly by an incompetent surgeon and he died from that fall. Another tradition tells us that he was killed after he fell by mob rule. If that be true then it is questionable as to why the Roman congress would allow his teachings to be one of their gods. If Simon claimed to be a god then it is doubtful in my mind that he would be honored in the Roman circles. That was one of the issues that killed Jesus. Caesar would never allow a mortal to overshadow his own godliness. There was no Catholic church at this time but there were many state approved gods of Rome.

The issue between Peter and Paul was one of hypocrisy in Galatians chapter two and was not even remotely connected to Simon Magus. Peter as well as others were acting as a hypocrite's and was called out for their hypocrisy by Paul

Am I missing something here? LOL

a reply to: Seede

I do not understand your point here. Simon Magus was a separate issue from this episode between Peter and Paul as shown in Galatians 2:15. Neither are connected to the other.

I think there is a strong connection. The writings of Paul were modified by Marcion to a point that it is impossible to distinguish between Paul and Simon Magus in works like Clementine Homilies....

St. Irenaeus Born: 130 AD
Doctrines of Cerdo and Marcion.

1. Cerdo was one who took his system from the followers of Simon, and came to live at Rome in the time of Hyginus, who held the ninth place in the episcopal succession from the apostles downwards. He taught that the God proclaimed by the law and the prophets was not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the former was known, but the latter unknown; while the one also was righteous, but the other benevolent.

2. Marcion of Pontus succeeded him, and developed his doctrine. In so doing, he advanced the most daring blasphemy against Him who is proclaimed as God by the law and the prophets, declaring Him to be the author of evils, to take delight in war, to be infirm of purpose, and even to be contrary to Himself. But Jesus being derived from that father who is above the God that made the world, and coming into Judæa in the times of Pontius Pilate the governor, who was the procurator of Tiberius Cæsar, was manifested in the form of a man to those who were in Judæa, abolishing the prophets and the law, and all the works of that God who made the world, whom also he calls Cosmocrator. Besides this, he mutilates the Gospel which is according to Luke, removing all that is written respecting the generation of the Lord, and setting aside a great deal of the teaching of the Lord, in which the Lord is recorded as most dearly confessing that the Maker of this universe is His Father. He likewise persuaded his disciples that he himself was more worthy of credit than are those apostles who have handed down the Gospel to us, furnishing them not with the Gospel, but merely a fragment of it. In like manner, too, he dismembered the Epistles of Paul, removing all that is said by the apostle respecting that God who made the world, to the effect that He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and also those passages from the prophetical writings which the apostle quotes, in order to teach us that they announced beforehand the coming of the Lord.

3. Salvation will be the attainment only of those souls which had learned his doctrine; while the body, as having been taken from the earth, is incapable of sharing in salvation. In addition to his blasphemy against God Himself, he advanced this also, truly speaking as with the mouth of the devil, and saying all things in direct opposition to the truth — that Cain, and those like him, and the Sodomites, and the Egyptians, and others like them, and, in fine, all the nations who walked in all sorts of abomination, were saved by the Lord, on His descending into Hades, and on their running unto Him, and that they welcomed Him into their kingdom. But the serpent which was in Marcion declared that Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and those other righteous men who sprang from the patriarch Abraham, with all the prophets, and those who were pleasing to God, did not partake in salvation. For since these men, he says, knew that their God was constantly tempting them, so now they suspected that He was tempting them, and did not run to Jesus, or believe His announcement: and for this reason he declared that their souls remained in Hades.

4. But since this man is the only one who has dared openly to mutilate the Scriptures, and unblushingly above all others to inveigh against God, I purpose specially to refute him, convicting him out of his own writings; and, with the help of God, I shall overthrow him out of those discourses of the Lord and the apostles, which are of authority with him, and of which he makes use. At present, however, I have simply been led to mention him, that you might know that all those who in any way corrupt the truth, and injuriously affect the preaching of the Church, are the disciples and successors of Simon Magus of Samaria. Although they do not confess the name of their master, in order all the more to seduce others, yet they do teach his doctrines. They set forth, indeed, the name of Christ Jesus as a sort of lure, but in various ways they introduce the impieties of Simon; and thus they destroy multitudes, wickedly disseminating their own doctrines by the use of a good name, and, through means of its sweetness and beauty, extending to their hearers the bitter and malignant poison of the serpent, the great author of apostasy. Revelation 12:9.

Link

Its Marcion during the 2nd century that produced eleven books of the New Testament.

a reply to: glend

Its Marcion during the 2nd century that produced eleven books of the New Testament.

Very misleading as to how you wrote this. Marcion did not author 12 books of the NT but wrote many papers [which most are lost] about his understanding of the NT. Firstly, Marcion was a polytheist and a heretic at best. He did not accept the OT which included the major and minor prophets of the Tanak and regarded the authority of the Judaic state as total nonsense.
He totally rejected the God of Abraham as is authored in the OT but accepted the God of the NT. His entire mind was confused with double mindlessness to suite his doctrine of Marcionism. He was truly insane.

a reply to: Seede

I said "produced" not "authored".

Marcionite produced the first version of New Testament cannon (there was no cannon before Marcionite), consisting of Gospel of Marcion (butchered version of Gospel of Luke), Galatians, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Romans, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Laodiceans1, Colossians, Philippians and Philemon

Marcion was also the first witness to six of the ten letters of Paul. Of those that were known to be written by Paul, St. Irenaeus reports that Marcion "dismembered the Epistles of Paul".

I don't dispute Marcion was insane for believing he was the last word on scripture. But he was instrumental in the production of what we know today as the New Testament. In that, I am not saying that Christianity is flawed. What I am saying is that there is a danger in believing that any text from ANY religion is the word of God. We can only find the truth of God in our hearts, not from words.

There is a book called "Dark Night of the Soul" written by St. John of the Cross. Whereas St John of the Cross describes a deep sense of meaninglessness that exists before God reaches down deep into our surrendered soul. God doesn't care about our silly concepts or beliefs....

Jesus said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

So we have to be wary of our righteousness. Its a hindrance to our aims.

Peace.

a reply to: NoClue

I think what is written in the bible is not history but, metaphors, and parables.

Yes I think you are right. Paul and Luke were highly educated people. I guess in a world of vibrations only the silence is truth.

Luke 1:24: ",,five months "
Luke 1:27: ",,sixth month "
Luke 1:36: ",,sixth month "
Luke 1:56: ",,three months"
Luke 1:59: ",,eighth day"

5 x 6 x 6 x 3 x 8 = 4,320. 4,320 solar years represents 60° or two complete zodiacal houses of the great year of 25,920 years.

a reply to: glend

Simon's interesting to say the least, while also very obscure, since being considered the father of gnostics or heresies. Interestingly enough gnostics and it narrative didn't start with unless he made his literary version of it. Plato had a very similar belief system too, which involved a Demiurge like figure, called the Artisan.

While Plato may have adopted it from the Elerysians, which is in some ways, similar to inadversely different in it story Greek story of creation. I believe Simon must of been very educated, multi-lingual too, and may have been a very good illusionist if he is as notorious as the Roman Church views of him.

He might of had access to various myths along his travels, like Greek/Roman, Egytian, Babylonia, and even Hebrews.

In a Pretist POV, he might of been the actual first mention of the antichrist, all the while there were many.

a reply to: glend

I'm sorry, I'm way behind when it comes to the bible and it's coded meaning and I have no clue what you want to tell me here.

Could you elaborate?

Sincerely No Clue

a reply to: glend

I said "produced" not "authored".

Yes I understood what you said but in all fairness you neglected the need to be complete. The reason I used the word authored was that this insane man did edit the NT letters as to his liking. It was not simply a matter of collecting material but was a matter of producing a false narrative to incite others. In fact it was so extant that about all that was left of the collection of NT letters that Marcion approved, in his own bible, were ten of Paul's letters, 1/2 Timothy, Titus, and selected portions of Luke. Even within those confinements he edited out any and all references to the OT God All of this was only those MSS that were available in his day. His earthly father [Bishop of Sinope] was so disjointed with this heretic that he also disowned him.

Now if there are some that regards this as canonized, then so be it their opinion, but in my own understanding there is absolutely nothing to even resemble the true MSS that were used such as in the KJV bible. The Roman church has a very strange way to Evalue their history but you must also remember that this same organization's foundation is built upon blood and murder.

a reply to: NoClue

Sorry I didn't mean to confuse. At the time of answering, I was reading about comparison between Luke with a Greek philosophiser named Plutarch. Who apparently used similar numerology as a signature in his other literary works. Plutarch was given roman sponsorship with new roman name of Lucius Mestrius Plutarchus, sponsored by roman senator L. Mestrius Florus. Plutarch wrote that he became apollo's priest at Delphi which is identified by Greeks as Helios, the god of the sun (Ra is also the Egyptian deity of the sun).

Comparison between Luke and Plutarch can be found here.

a reply to: Seede

"but in my own understanding there is absolutely nothing to even resemble the true MSS that were used such as in the KJV bible"

Yes I cannot dispute that, There is no copy of the Marcion bible to do any comparisons. But I did check some of the text that Marcion was claimed to have removed and they still exists in the current bible, So in the end, we can only assume that the bible has remained true, by those that have fought for truth, through that ages.

a reply to: Specimen88

"first mention of the antichrist"

I was thinking along those lines as well.