African Kingdoms: Great Zimbabwe AAT Questions

a reply to: DISRAELI

But if the Israelite tribe got to southern Africa 2000 years ago doesnt that mean that the Bantu tribes did exactly the opposite to what you suggest and took the place of "the stimulating bringers of new ideas" who came from the eastern Mediterannean?

I'm currently studying, researching and piecing together the human story on earth parallel to the cataclysms on Earth.

Basically the truth of origin. All the land masses were as a "shell" or "shield" of land mass. Then something struck this land lass, separating the shield into three large land masses (Americas, Europe/Asia connected, and Antarctica).

Post impact of the ORIGINAL cataclysm caused these land masses to drift apart, the smaller islands and Australia floating further from the origin shield/land mass of the continent of Africa and Asian.

From the Asian islands to the oceanic, all these fragments of the original shield drifting away from their original land mass.

Zimbabwe and Australia were part of Africa, which shot away from the the continent from the devastating impact.

Look at all the islands from oceanic to Asia, some of the original/native people are black in these areas. Drifted and detached from Africa eons ago.

Survivors of the Cataclysm.

When we bring the debris islands and match them up to the continent they obviously drifted from, as well as matching the genealogy of natives, we can see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is; all land drifting on the oceans are debris broken off from their origin continent. And the survivors and inhabitants of these islands seem to be black or Asian.

That's where we can "fill in the gaps".

a reply to: Elementalist

Keep in mind the Earths rotation, the waters swirling and the shockwave disrupting both.

With that in mind and many other variables (post traumatic stutters within the Earths mantle causing earthquakes and moving land masses more so) we can kind of see the direction the oceans and impact drifted out the islands (debris land masses separated from the original continent).

The islands make a "tail" shape based on the swirl of ocean currents (disrupted from impact) and shockwave impact. The curvature if this tail tells us the direction the islands drifted from.

a reply to: Elementalist

To coincide with the topic of thread which I didnt link in my previous post...


Zimbabwe islands drifted from Africa, which connected into the Western Asia and Easter Africa regions, where we tend to see the earliest remnants of human history.

So these islands and land masses were all connected, civilization pockets all over what we call Africa and Asia.. then..

BAM!!

Mighty impact breaks the earths shield and the land masses slingshot all over the place... land masses sunk, civilizations went under water, other land masses drift far away to never be seen or heard of again until the modern ages.

Now we have the technology and information to look at the bigger picture and trace the human genealogy and the events that took place on the earth, that leave us with where everything is today.

a reply to: Vhedza

Archaeology in the middle east is still rather unexplored territory.

For one, it's been inhabited for thousands of years, two back when it was still relatively safe archaeologists were raiding egypt and looking for gold in south America.

Then it became a war zone, and now it's just a mess. But I feel if we can actually go into places like Iraq and conduct proper studies and digs we can start to connect the dots back to Africa.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Back when we European's were living in pig # plastered houses with open sewers in the streets outside, no sanitation in that lovely holiday from civilization that came with the fall of the Roman empire (and that lasted well over a thousand years for most Europeans though the rich did get better building's eventually - it took until the late 19th century for the rest of us) there were many civilized nations and even great empires in both eastern and western Africa, they had university's, sanitation and proper building's.

Many of them became Islamic and so there true history became occluded and there great work's were then attributed to Islamic influence though for one example take the great Ethiopian empire, it was a Christian empire and it's people claimed descent from Jewish and Sheban people's, they had university's, synagogues, churches and monastery's and only finally fell having resisted repeated attempts by Islam over more than a thousand years to conquer them when to my shame the British brought them to there knee's an act which is still reverberating to this day in that part of the world with the ensuing parasitic success of Islam in the region that then followed this destruction of the Ethiopian military that had shielded many other Christian African's and battled slavers for generations prior to this happening.

Worse than that when the British forces defeated the Ethiopian army bringing to an end an ancient east African CHRISTAN empire they then looted it and there is ongoing controversy as much of the treasure including artefacts that are HOLY to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church are still in possession of many collectors around the world including the British Museum which has refused to repatriate the stolen item's.
britishheritage.com...

And it is worth mentioning that perhaps the oldest continuous civilized country in the world is actually in Africa, Egypt.


My take on it is this, every race (there is really only ONE race of man but I digress) of man has had great moment's and not so great moment's.
At time's when we are great there will always be those that assume this mean's that we are superior and this is the same from all perspectives of those whom at those time's are the CIVILIZED one's.
But the table always turn's and it turn's again and again as cultures rise then fall then are replaced and rise again in a new guise.

I have no doubt that Great Zimbabwe was an African Nation, I also have no doubt that they traded far and wide and there major export was GOLD.

They were one city in the interior and there may have been and indeed likely were a great many others whom traded via many city's on the coast, when we Europeans came upon them we were superior in only two ways, better ship's and the fact we had lot of cannon and more advanced weapon's, so the Portuguese whom were the first to meet these East African city states levelled them, looted them and drove there survivors into the hinterland's were many of them were then killed by more primitive people's or else starved to death, these remember were cultured people's whom traded as far as China and primarily in the age of Islam with the Arabic world since Arabia had for them always been the gate to wider commerce.

There were once hundreds of African city's like this one, some far more advanced and some very beautiful and cosmopolitan all destroyed by Portuguese pirates armed with cannon and gun's.

Kilwa was a great African City indeed.

Also Ancient Mali and many others.

I'm quite interested in the Geological angle which I havent really come across before.

I also think that there may be something to be found in looking at the connection with Ancient Eastern Civilization.

There are so many potential dots to connect.

a reply to: Vhedza

What is wrong with most people's view of African society's is that they have a stereotypical image of half naked people living in straw hut's but while this is true of many African peoples it is not true of all, not by a long shot.

Those grass hut's are actually quite clever as well, warm in the cold night and cool in the heat of the day they provide a superior environment to the imported European style building's that were built during the colonial years and which were only ever suitable for colder condition's.

Then take the Zulu nation, they can be and have been many times in the past savage and fearless warriors whom would run to there death's against massed artillery and rifle fire with nothing but spears and hide shields but in fact they were far more technically and strategically advanced than this gives the impression, they independently recreated the bull horn tactic that the Mongol hoard had once used though perhaps on a smaller scale were the horn's would encircle there enemy while the head of the bull would distract them, they also independently reinvented many Roman tactic's such as massed shield wall's and shield roof's of tight formation's to protect there soldiers from the hurled spears and arrow's of there opponent's and at any other time in history they would have been numbered among the greatest soldiers in history - but they were up against what at that time were in fact THE greatest soldiers in the world's history - especially at Rourks Drift were there tactic's failed against the discipline and determination of a 'non front line' welsh engineer's army unit, they had however shook the British empire to it's core with there success against a far larger British force (than they just a few day's later faced at Rourks Drift) at Isandlwana leaving a disbelieving and shocked British establishment to find all manner or reason's to blame in the face of having to accept the unthinkable - that being that supposedly inferior savages were actually bloody good soldiers a stereotype that persisted until the second world war in many western nation's.

The usual and most probably accurate excuse for us having lost so many men to a bunch of tribal primitives armed with only spears and hide shields was that our soldiers could not get to the ammunition they needed as the ammunition box's had there lid's screwed on and they had no means to unscrew them so very quickly ran out of ammunition and were swarmed by the huge native army while the small Welsh contingent had time to prepare which the unit encamped at Isandlwana did not and were unprepared for the sudden massed attack of the Zulu warrior's.

After Isandlwana the Zulu tried ineffectively to use the captured British rifles having seen how deadly they could be but without training they could not aim them accurately and so when they attacked Rourks Drift these stolen rifles were if anything a crutch that altered there tactics for the worse, either way they lost to a group of tough welsh engineers and it remains one of the most famous battles in history that perhaps stand's alongside the ancient battle of the Spartan's at the hot gates against the massed army's of Xerxes.

But I have drifted a bit here, my argument is that they showed they were excellent strategists, inventive warrior's and fierce soldiers so it is no surprise then for us to find that among the African people's there have been great city's, ancient empires some of which may have been ignored or even overlooked - perhaps because if they existed they would be inconvenient to many theory's about the past of the human race.

The problem is that in tropical country's mud brick washes away, straw hut's vanish from the landscape and nature reclaims the places mankind has once been.

Take at look at how until fairly recently the natives of south America were stereotyped, then look at how vast the recently discovered mega city of the maya was, a city that could and did hold millions of people and was far larger than ancient Rome but of which we knew nothing as it was buried beneath the jungle and actually believed that the few surviving suburbs of that city were actually completely independent Mayan city's when in fact they had once been mere neighbourhood's of the vast metropolis, a city larger even than most in Asia until modern time's.

Though not Africa it demonstrates the knowledge filter that we have in place, one written by people convinced of there own superiority and with national pride in there nations at the time when they laid down these beliefs as unwritten rules that now need to be broken through like the ice on top of a frozen lake to get at the real truth of the past beneath them.


It is even possible that the Ancient south American civilizations were in contact and traded with the then cultured and civilized African Coastal civilizations.
3000 year old Egyptian mummy's have been found with Tobacco and Cocaine traces in them.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Vhedza

What is wrong with most people's view of African society's is that they have a stereotypical image of half naked people living in straw hut's but while this is true of many African peoples it is not true of all, not by a long shot.

Those grass hut's are actually quite clever as well, warm in the cold night and cool in the heat of the day they provide a superior environment to the imported European style building's that were built during the colonial years and which were only ever suitable for colder condition's.

Then take the Zulu nation, they can be and have been many times in the past savage and fearless warriors whom would run to there death's against massed artillery and rifle fire with nothing but spears and hide shields but in fact they were far more technically and strategically advanced than this gives the impression, they independently recreated the bull horn tactic that the Mongol hoard had once used though perhaps on a smaller scale were the horn's would encircle there enemy while the head of the bull would distract them, they also independently reinvented many Roman tactic's such as massed shield wall's and shield roof's of tight formation's to protect there soldiers from the hurled spears and arrow's of there opponent's and at any other time in history they would have been numbered among the greatest soldiers in history - but they were up against what at that time were in fact THE greatest soldiers in the world's history - especially at Rourks Drift were there tactic's failed against the discipline and determination of a 'non front line' welsh engineer's army unit, they had however shook the British empire to it's core with there success against a far larger British force (than they just a few day's later faced at Rourks Drift) at Isandlwana leaving a disbelieving and shocked British establishment to find all manner or reason's to blame in the face of having to accept the unthinkable - that being that supposedly inferior savages were actually bloody good soldiers a stereotype that persisted until the second world war in many western nation's.

The usual and most probably accurate excuse for us having lost so many men to a bunch of tribal primitives armed with only spears and hide shields was that our soldiers could not get to the ammunition they needed as the ammunition box's had there lid's screwed on and they had no means to unscrew them so very quickly ran out of ammunition and were swarmed by the huge native army while the small Welsh contingent had time to prepare which the unit encamped at Isandlwana did not and were unprepared for the sudden massed attack of the Zulu warrior's.

After Isandlwana the Zulu tried ineffectively to use the captured British rifles having seen how deadly they could be but without training they could not aim them accurately and so when they attacked Rourks Drift these stolen rifles were if anything a crutch that altered there tactics for the worse, either way they lost to a group of tough welsh engineers and it remains one of the most famous battles in history that perhaps stand's alongside the ancient battle of the Spartan's at the hot gates against the massed army's of Xerxes.

But I have drifted a bit here, my argument is that they showed they were excellent strategists, inventive warrior's and fierce soldiers so it is no surprise then for us to find that among the African people's there have been great city's, ancient empires some of which may have been ignored or even overlooked - perhaps because if they existed they would be inconvenient to many theory's about the past of the human race.

The problem is that in tropical country's mud brick washes away, straw hut's vanish from the landscape and nature reclaims the places mankind has once been.

Take at look at how until fairly recently the natives of south America were stereotyped, then look at how vast the recently discovered mega city of the maya was, a city that could and did hold millions of people and was far larger than ancient Rome but of which we knew nothing as it was buried beneath the jungle and actually believed that the few surviving suburbs of that city were actually completely independent Mayan city's when in fact they had once been mere neighbourhood's of the vast metropolis, a city larger even than most in Asia until modern time's.

Though not Africa it demonstrates the knowledge filter that we have in place, one written by people convinced of there own superiority and with national pride in there nations at the time when they laid down these beliefs as unwritten rules that now need to be broken through like the ice on top of a frozen lake to get at the real truth of the past beneath them.

It is even possible that the Ancient south American civilizations were in contact and traded with the then cultured and civilized African Coastal civilizations.
3000 year old Egyptian mummy's have been found with Tobacco and Cocaine traces in them.

Nice one...Thanks.

This is also a greast series on African Civilizations as well...It made me see that even as an African, I didnt actually understand how great Africa really was.

Seems like African nations always ran into the problem that they got too much wealth, without having a big enough army to go with it.

Either that, or they got a big army, but didn't generate any wealth, like the Zulus.

I'd wanted to suggest that the question of who created Great Zimbabwe could be settled by DNA studies. We might assume whoever built the city stuck around and had kids, and the current residents would carry some of their DNA.

I wanted to, but I suspect the reason the civilization came to an end is that its neighbors got jealous. A Zulu-like nation probably wiped them out.



Africa's greatest strength is its variety. And its biggest handicap is..... its variety.

a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Some good point's, finding were ever the burial grounds of the city are would be a far better bet for DNA testing if any intact bone's could be found and if then any intact genetic material could still be extracted which given the warm climate is not an easy objective, then that could of course be cross referenced with the current population to see if they are related too and by what percentage the population of the time of those burial's.

And as for variety, there is more human genetic variation in Africa than the rest of the world's population combined, the rest of us are most closely related to the east African people's such as the Ethiopian's and Somali's which the out of Africa believers use to suggest they are a seed race or a branch of the seed race from which the out of Africa Cro-Magnons originated whom them went on to colonise the rest of the world, of course there are theory's of several waves of African migration into the rest of the world and alternative but currently not in fashion theory's that postulate other origin locations but while I am personally a creationist the orthodox scientific view is that we are all really Africans whom have simply adapted to and mixed with other family's of man whom were here before us such as Neanderthal and of course there are also theory's of into Africa migrations but one thing remains clear Africans have the most diverse genetics of all humans alive today meaning in fact that they are several distinct racial groups.

here is an interesting video about lost races of man.

The video puts racism in a whole different perspective. Humanity has already lost so much genetic diversity, could you imagine if the Nazis had won, and we lost even more?

Once it's gone, you can't get it back.


Maybe it is best if Africa stays underdeveloped for a while. So it can spend some time thinking about what it wants to ultimately become.

a reply to: 3n19m470

Whatdoes the precession of the equinoxes do to subsaharan Africa? It could be as simple as asking mazlow why they didnt build more megacities.

Or maybe africas been underexplored. Or explored but findings stifles

originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
Seems like African nations always ran into the problem that they got too much wealth, without having a big enough army to go with it.

Either that, or they got a big army, but didn't generate any wealth, like the Zulus.

I'd wanted to suggest that the question of who created Great Zimbabwe could be settled by DNA studies. We might assume whoever built the city stuck around and had kids, and the current residents would carry some of their DNA.

I wanted to, but I suspect the reason the civilization came to an end is that its neighbors got jealous. A Zulu-like nation probably wiped them out.



Africa's greatest strength is its variety. And its biggest handicap is..... its variety.

Solid...

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Some good point's, finding were ever the burial grounds of the city are would be a far better bet for DNA testing if any intact bone's could be found and if then any intact genetic material could still be extracted which given the warm climate is not an easy objective, then that could of course be cross referenced with the current population to see if they are related too and by what percentage the population of the time of those burial's.

And as for variety, there is more human genetic variation in Africa than the rest of the world's population combined, the rest of us are most closely related to the east African people's such as the Ethiopian's and Somali's which the out of Africa believers use to suggest they are a seed race or a branch of the seed race from which the out of Africa Cro-Magnons originated whom them went on to colonise the rest of the world, of course there are theory's of several waves of African migration into the rest of the world and alternative but currently not in fashion theory's that postulate other origin locations but while I am personally a creationist the orthodox scientific view is that we are all really Africans whom have simply adapted to and mixed with other family's of man whom were here before us such as Neanderthal and of course there are also theory's of into Africa migrations but one thing remains clear Africans have the most diverse genetics of all humans alive today meaning in fact that they are several distinct racial groups.

here is an interesting video about lost races of man.

Thank you

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: 3n19m470

Whatdoes the precession of the equinoxes do to subsaharan Africa? It could be as simple as asking mazlow why they didnt build more megacities.

Or maybe africas been underexplored. Or explored but findings stifles

Thats what I also think...Necessity and conditions in Tropical Africa had a lot to do with the trajectory of Africa's development...The same conditions of scarcity that prevailed in Europe simply didnt exist here so Africa developed a completely different culture.