If faith was blind belief, why would it be of such importance?

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Mach2

All of creation is proof of a creator.

That is an opinion, born of indoctrination, not fact, based on evidence.

That is fine, everyone is free to believe what they choose, but if you are going to participate in a forum of discussion, and debate, you should come with more than tired unsubstantiated rhetoric.

Your mind is closed. You have an immovable opinion. Therefore our discussion has come to a close.

I will listen to anyones thoughts on almost any subject, but when i get the "I'm right, you're wrong" bit on philosophical subjects, there is no value for either party.

I am not an athiest, i just like to explore all possibilities, with an open mind, in these types of threads.

a reply to: Mach2

Would most ppl have faith, without indoctrination?

Now that, to me, is a very interesting question.

Personally, I doubt you're going to find anyone of "faith" to hold onto it for a lifetime without it including personal experiences. While others can say there is no proof of a God, there are just as many who will tell you that their prayers are answered, they've experienced supernatural events that can't be explained with logic or reason, or that their lives have been transformed by something greater than themselves. So, faith may not be as blind as others believe it to be.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry, faith does do good. You are clearly not in the medical field, if you were you would know how foolish your statement is. In fact faith is part of assessment because of how valuable it is to long and short-term outcomes. No offense meant by this, but it is always better to comment on things you know.

"Faith" can indeed do some interesting things when dealing with human ailments.

That is also true of placebos though. It is the belief here that is important, not the underlying reality of the treatment.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: new_here

That is not what religion means or is though.

I don't wish to argue semantics with you, my friend. Define it as you wish, but in any case, the topic is Faith and not Religion.

Just to be clear, I'm just talking about my own personal faith and connection to God. I'm not attempting to tell others to believe as I do. It is MY Truth.

I'm always curious about those who subscribe to the 'religion' of Atheism, though. How they seek to denigrate and insult those who speak of their personal faith. The topic was posed, I said my peace (which included a criticism of organized religion) and those of the Atheist faith pile on with disparaging remarks and attempts to persuade me to their own belief system, when I've done nothing of the sort. What gives? Again I ask, why does my personal Faith vex you so? "The lady Athiest doth protest too much!"

What's wrong with respecting my right to my own beliefs while saying, "This is the way I see it..." ???

a reply to: Mach2

Remember

a reply to: Mach2

A big difference is that belief in aliens, or esp is not an inherrent danger to others, while religion is responsibe for countless millions of death, and immeasurable suffering.

LOL! You don't know that! As far as you know, aliens (or demons that many believe them to be) may be driving the radical forces behind radical religion. Not every religious person is a radical.

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry, faith does do good. You are clearly not in the medical field, if you were you would know how foolish your statement is. In fact faith is part of assessment because of how valuable it is to long and short-term outcomes. No offense meant by this, but it is always better to comment on things you know.

"Faith" can indeed do some interesting things when dealing with human ailments.

That is also true of placebos though. It is the belief here that is important, not the underlying reality of the treatment.

The only on topic point is that Faith does indeed impact medical outcomes, which you agree with.

a reply to: Mach2

A big difference is that belief in aliens, or esp is not an inherrent danger to others, while religion is responsibe for countless millions of death, and immeasurable suffering.

Please define this religion as you see it. Legacy of men?

originally posted by: new_here

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: new_here

That is not what religion means or is though.

I don't wish to argue semantics with you, my friend. Define it as you wish, but in any case, the topic is Faith and not Religion.

Just to be clear, I'm just talking about my own personal faith and connection to God. I'm not attempting to tell others to believe as I do. It is MY Truth.

I'm always curious about those who subscribe to the 'religion' of Atheism, though. How they seek to denigrate and insult those who speak of their personal faith. The topic was posed, I said my peace (which included a criticism of organized religion) and those of the Atheist faith pile on with disparaging remarks and attempts to persuade me to their own belief system, when I've done nothing of the sort. What gives? Again I ask, why does my personal Faith vex you so? "The lady Athiest doth protest too much!"

What's wrong with respecting my right to my own beliefs while saying, "This is the way I see it..." ???

But if it is only your truth, and you know it is not reasonable or even matches what other people who make similar claims say, then why share it? Or even why accept it? You know very well that others make claims that you disagree with. This is the problem with faith. It can justify any belief. So why rely on it?

a reply to: new_here

You can believe whatever you wish, but words have meaning. Religion is not simply the box you have put it in. I fully agree people should be given the respect of having their own beliefs and not denigrated for it.

a reply to: Woodcarver

That's easy to say by someone who will claim to have no faith at all.

originally posted by: Mach2
a reply to: new_here

A big difference is that belief in aliens, or esp is not an inherrent danger to others, while religion is responsibe for countless millions of death, and immeasurable suffering.

So you are claiming faith is an inherent danger?

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Mach2

All of creation is proof of a creator.

Nope. The universe is proof that the universe exists. You would necessarily need to demonstrate that a god created it to make the claim that a god created it. And to do that you would first need to demonstrate that the god in question is the one that did it. Especially in light of the fact that there are so many different god claims. That is the problem with faith based claims. There are sooooo many of them that contradict yours, that none of them have any value.

originally posted by: Out6of9Balance
a reply to: Woodcarver

That's easy to say by someone who will claim to have no faith at all.

What use is faith? Do you accept every other faith claim? Do you believe in Thor, Vishnu, Brahma? I’m sure you don’t. But why?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: new_here

You can believe whatever you wish, but words have meaning. Religion is not simply the box you have put it in. I fully agree people should be given the respect of having their own beliefs and not denigrated for it.

Would you not denegrate the scientologists? Would you not denegrate mormons? Would you not denegrate ISIS? Bad ideas need to be pointed out and ridiculed.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
There are sooooo many of them that contradict yours, that none of them have any value.

Logical fallacy. Value of one can not be assigned based on the value of others. If 10 people come up to you and all tell you 10 different things, is it your claim all 10 must be wrong? Is it your claim that because the first 9 were wrong that the 10th should be dismissed out of hand based on the other 9?

a reply to: Woodcarver

I will never agree to disagree. That is only used by people who know that their claims are wrong or unprovable.

That's BS. It means that while someone believes their claim is correct, they're willing to allow you the same respect for believing that your claim is correct as well.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: new_here

You can believe whatever you wish, but words have meaning. Religion is not simply the box you have put it in. I fully agree people should be given the respect of having their own beliefs and not denigrated for it.

Would you not denegrate the scientologists? Would you not denegrate mormons? Would you not denegrate ISIS? Bad ideas need to be pointed out and ridiculed.

I can think Scientology is stupid while respecting their right to have their beliefs.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry, faith does do good. You are clearly not in the medical field, if you were you would know how foolish your statement is. In fact faith is part of assessment because of how valuable it is to long and short-term outcomes. No offense meant by this, but it is always better to comment on things you know.

"Faith" can indeed do some interesting things when dealing with human ailments.

That is also true of placebos though. It is the belief here that is important, not the underlying reality of the treatment.

The only on topic point is that Faith does indeed impact medical outcomes, which you agree with.

It has never been proven that faith and prayer have any significant reaction on medical issues. Here are a number of scientific studies.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: new_here

You can believe whatever you wish, but words have meaning. Religion is not simply the box you have put it in. I fully agree people should be given the respect of having their own beliefs and not denigrated for it.

Would you not denegrate the scientologists? Would you not denegrate mormons? Would you not denegrate ISIS? Bad ideas need to be pointed out and ridiculed.

I can think Scientology is stupid while respecting their right to have their beliefs.

Even though they literally keep people as slaves and fleece them of their money? You’re ok with slavery? www.theatlantic.com...

What about ISIS? You’re ok with them?

Boko Haram? You don’t denegrate them?