A Stab at the Christian Myth

a reply to: KansasGirl

But why do you believe that? You do know that there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim. And a ton of evidence showing that The stories about Jesus were pieced together from several other sources.

originally posted by: gort51
a reply to: [post=24312560]charlyv[/post

Who knows what cultural reference the nomadic Arabs and Jews put on childbirth.

Many, many scholars of ancient language, that's who.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: KansasGirl

But why do you believe that? You do know that there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim. And a ton of evidence showing that The stories about Jesus were pieced together from several other sources.

You are totally and completely under-informed on your last two sentences there. Embarassingly (for you) under-informed.

As to why I believe what I do, I am absolutely not going to waste my time with you on that, because it's very personal to me, and because you have absolutely no interest in considering anything besides your Enuma elish (which you seem to bank EVERYTHING on) as an explanation. Furthermore, you are very rude, crass, and worst of all: disrespectful. If I had even the slightest, tiniest indication that you were in ANY way open-minded to considering something other than your own theories, I would oblige you. But you are not interested in anything but your own "knowledge."

I have been where you are though, so I do understand. I don't blame you for believing what you do, because as I said, I was there before.

Cheers.

The interpretations of the names might be a stretch because you're taking their definitions or definitions of root words within them to determine something. I suppose you're implying that since you believe none of those people existed, their names were chosen to symbolize or imply things in the narrative.

So you don't believe any of the Old Testament characters or prophets like Isaiah existed either, or just the prophets? What about the Kings like David and others in Chronicles? Nebuchadnezzar? At the least, couldn't the prophets have existed but had stories made about them?

If anything, Jesus was a normal person (historical figure eventually) and existed. He could've been crucified and his body taken away before the tomb was closed, it could've been kept, stolen. He could've been taken down from the cross before death and secretly restored to health to eventually sail to Europe with Mary Magdeline and make babies that became royalty. I think stealing of the corpse should be strongly considered. Just because the story goes that two guards were watching it, we don't know how well or to what extent, if they slept by it or were out drinking and frequenting with loose local women.

That's the problem with historical word of mouth stuff that became written material. It could be made up, exagerrated, supernatural things thrown in, details added. However, to say it isn't at least based on something, even loosely, that actually happened involving some of the characters especially that the story is about, is incorrect. Incorrect and usually motivated by a particular personal feeling, attitude, or opinion against Christianity. Otherwise the question to say it's wrong while knowing it'll be impossible to prove your position. Also, if it were ever a winnable argument with Christians the religion would be forever destroyed and you win.

Everyone else who isn't Christian because they weren't raised as such or simply doesn't believe there's a God and an afterlife from natural uninfluenced self determination doesn't really.. care about it enough to rally against it, present arguments and write essays as to why it isn't true and/or going further to say the characters never existed. That's usually from someone who more often than not is bitter towards the religion because of personal experiences in their past so they funnel it into discediting the bible which is obviously heavily exagerrated with major parts of the stories made up.

I don't see much material explaining that Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism are heavily made up in the same way. They simply don't focus on it because there aren't many followers of those religions who will ever see it, and even less people who care. Their parents didn't push one of those religions on them, they didn't have to participate, they didn't realize it was all a big lie shattering their lives, they didn't get touched inappropriately, etc.

originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: KansasGirl

But why do you believe that? You do know that there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim. And a ton of evidence showing that The stories about Jesus were pieced together from several other sources.

You are totally and completely under-informed on your last two sentences there. Embarassingly (for you) under-informed.

As to why I believe what I do, I am absolutely not going to waste my time with you on that, because it's very personal to me, and because you have absolutely no interest in considering anything besides your Enuma elish (which you seem to bank EVERYTHING on) as an explanation. Furthermore, you are very rude, crass, and worst of all: disrespectful. If I had even the slightest, tiniest indication that you were in ANY way open-minded to considering something other than your own theories, I would oblige you. But you are not interested in anything but your own "knowledge."

I have been where you are though, so I do understand. I don't blame you for believing what you do, because as I said, I was there before.

Cheers.

It is you, who is unwilling to question your beliefs. I know you are not ready, but someone reading this will gladly start on the path.

originally posted by: r0xor
The interpretations of the names might be a stretch because you're taking their definitions or definitions of root words within them to determine something. I suppose you're implying that since you believe none of those people existed, their names were chosen to symbolize or imply things in the narrative.

So you don't believe any of the Old Testament characters or prophets like Isaiah existed either, or just the prophets? What about the Kings like David and others in Chronicles? Nebuchadnezzar? At the least, couldn't the prophets have existed but had stories made about them?

If anything, Jesus was a normal person (historical figure eventually) and existed. He could've been crucified and his body taken away before the tomb was closed, it could've been kept, stolen. He could've been taken down from the cross before death and secretly restored to health to eventually sail to Europe with Mary Magdeline and make babies that became royalty. I think stealing of the corpse should be strongly considered. Just because the story goes that two guards were watching it, we don't know how well or to what extent, if they slept by it or were out drinking and frequenting with loose local women.

That's the problem with historical word of mouth stuff that became written material. It could be made up, exagerrated, supernatural things thrown in, details added. However, to say it isn't at least based on something, even loosely, that actually happened involving some of the characters especially that the story is about, is incorrect. Incorrect and usually motivated by a particular personal feeling, attitude, or opinion against Christianity. Otherwise the question to say it's wrong while knowing it'll be impossible to prove your position. Also, if it were ever a winnable argument with Christians the religion would be forever destroyed and you win.

Everyone else who isn't Christian because they weren't raised as such or simply doesn't believe there's a God and an afterlife from natural uninfluenced self determination doesn't really.. care about it enough to rally against it, present arguments and write essays as to why it isn't true and/or going further to say the characters never existed. That's usually from someone who more often than not is bitter towards the religion because of personal experiences in their past so they funnel it into discediting the bible which is obviously heavily exagerrated with major parts of the stories made up.

I don't see much material explaining that Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism are heavily made up in the same way. They simply don't focus on it because there aren't many followers of those religions who will ever see it, and even less people who care. Their parents didn't push one of those religions on them, they didn't have to participate, they didn't realize it was all a big lie shattering their lives, they didn't get touched inappropriately, etc.

I’m not claiming any of it is real. I’m only pointing out that the stories are way older than the versions in the bible. Which makes the events that are described in the bible, and the entire christian cult by proxy, a reboot of earlier ideologies.

They are certainly not original in any way.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry for the late replay, you make some very good point's and sorry for mentioning the gentleman club.

There are other similar religions such as Zoroastrianism which is very similar in many way's to Judaism but differs extremely on other point's and there are other creation story's that also come very close to those of Genesis.
As you know Genesis has actually what many believe to be two contradictory story's of man's creation.
Though some argument's are that this is just down to misinterpretation even among Jewish rabbi themselves so the Kaballistic tradition is not universally accepted.
kabbalah.fayelevine.com...

So as you can see very early genesis is a bit mixed up and for me the important start of the bible is the Story of Abraham.

Well, either Mary was impregnated by some form of medical procedure or was knocked up by a naughty Roman soldier. Everything else flows from that. Potentially disgraced and worthless in the society of the time a mystical plan is hatched.

Interesting that Josef was the first one contacted though - maybe he got in a bit early and needed a cover story.

So in essence the start of the story might be based on something unsavoury at the time, but the outcome, if you just listen to the words of Jesus, was quite profound. Religion is pretty dumb, but the words and teachings of the man are not a bad basis for a good life. a reply to: Astrocyte

a reply to: Astrocyte

It does not make sense.
Nor do you.

It is a matter of awareness.
It is a matter of faith.

Faith beyond the Koyaanisqatsi
state of humanity.

Why do you stab at me
when you will only harm yourself?
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Astrocyte

Look up a picture of Isis holding Horace on her lap.

If you want The complete picture of what the Abrahamic religions are trying to portray. You should start with early Sumarian writings, and work your way up through all of the other early middle eastern teachings. You’re basically starting in the middle of the story if all you are focusing on is the Christian Bible.

So you are suggesting any woman holding a baby is because of the isis Horace thing
Really, you that brainwashed into believing your own narative

So what in relation is relevant to Sumerian and Hebrew

You been zeitgeisting way to much

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Woodcarver

Sorry for the late replay, you make some very good point's and sorry for mentioning the gentleman club.

There are other similar religions such as Zoroastrianism which is very similar in many way's to Judaism but differs extremely on other point's and there are other creation story's that also come very close to those of Genesis.
As you know Genesis has actually what many believe to be two contradictory story's of man's creation.
Though some argument's are that this is just down to misinterpretation even among Jewish rabbi themselves so the Kaballistic tradition is not universally accepted.
kabbalah.fayelevine.com...

So as you can see very early genesis is a bit mixed up and for me the important start of the bible is the Story of Abraham.

Abraham and his wife sarah?

Check out the hindu stories about Brahma and his consort saraswati. Also written way before the stories of the bible.


The first laws of the jews? The 200 something laws that got boiled down to the Ten Commandments?

Compare them to the code of hammurabi. Open them side by side and really take your time and compare them.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: Astrocyte

Look up a picture of Isis holding Horace on her lap.

If you want The complete picture of what the Abrahamic religions are trying to portray. You should start with early Sumarian writings, and work your way up through all of the other early middle eastern teachings. You’re basically starting in the middle of the story if all you are focusing on is the Christian Bible.

So you are suggesting any woman holding a baby is because of the isis Horace thing
Really, you that brainwashed into believing your own narative

So what in relation is relevant to Sumerian and Hebrew

You been zeitgeisting way to much

Did you search for the image?

Zeitgeist is stupid

a reply to: KansasGirl

I have been where you are though, so I do understand. I don't blame you for believing what you do, because as I said, I was there before.

Respectfully, it is unlikely you have been where he is at. Once a person sees the Abrahamic religions for what they really are, there is no going back.

I'll keep it short for now, as I don't have time for a long post, but:

From Polytheism to Monotheism; Henotheism. That's all you need for the search of truth.

All three Abrahamic religions are worshipping a single God, some ancient people choose to be their God, from a plethora of Gods. Many of which have since been demoted to the status of Angel instead of a God.

I'm busy working on a topic about this problem that has shackled billions of people around the world. The Abrahamic religions are not what many people think it is.

a reply to: Raggedyman

So you are suggesting any woman holding a baby is because of the isis Horace thing Really, you that brainwashed into believing your own narative

No, he is saying it's a common religious archetype throughout history, not just Egypt. As I said to Harte, if Egypt were the only evidence, it would lacking on its own, but that doesn't mean there aren't bits and pieces there as well. Throwing around Zeitgeist is just being more obtuse. We already know the mistakes made in that production.

You are smarter than you pretend to be.

originally posted by: Woodcarver
It is you, who is unwilling to question your beliefs. I know you are not ready, but someone reading this will gladly start on the path.

This is the disrespect and ignorance she was referring to about you. You assume, because she believes differently than you, that she is blindly following a belief system. Many of the Christians on here can defend their knowledge of God logically and with personal experiences.

What do you suppose she is not ready for? To go into the abyss of non-belief and nihilism??? seriously, where do you suppose your path is leading? As she has said, many of us have been at the same point you are at in your life, so we can empathize with your current confusion... just keep searching with out bias, and you will eventually be lead to the truth.

a reply to: KansasGirl


De Gregorio is the first and the crucifixion is part of the frescos from the church of Sant'Ignazio in Rome by Pozzo.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Woodcarver
It is you, who is unwilling to question your beliefs. I know you are not ready, but someone reading this will gladly start on the path.

This is the disrespect and ignorance she was referring to about you. You assume, because she believes differently than you, that she is blindly following a belief system. Many of the Christians on here can defend their knowledge of God logically and with personal experiences.

What do you suppose she is not ready for? To go into the abyss of non-belief and nihilism??? seriously, where do you suppose your path is leading? As she has said, many of us have been at the same point you are at in your life, so we can empathize with your current confusion... just keep searching with out bias, and you will eventually be lead to the truth.

Wow, that’s a lot of anger and assumptions. Have you followed any of my links? I promise they won’t lead to nihilism.

a reply to: Astrocyte

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet". What's in a name?

Here is the first tablet

Enuma Elish (The Babylonian Epic of Creation)

Tablet I

1 When the heavens above did not exist,
2 And earth beneath had not come into being —
3 There was Apsû, the first in order, their begetter,
4 And demiurge Tia-mat, who gave birth to them all;
5 They had mingled their waters together
6 Before meadow-land had coalesced and reed-bed was to he found —
7 When not one of the gods had been formed
8 Or had come into being, when no destinies had been decreed,
9 The gods were created within them:
10 Lah(mu and Lah(amu were formed and came into being.
11 While they grew and increased in stature
12 Anšar and Kišar, who excelled them, were created.
13 They prolonged their days, they multiplied their years.
14 Anu, their son, could rival his fathers.
15 Anu, the son, equalled Anšar,
16 And Anu begat Nudimmud, his own equal.
17 Nudimmud was the champion among his fathers:
18 Profoundly discerning, wise, of robust strength;
19 Very much stronger than his father's begetter, Anšar
20 He had no rival among the gods, his brothers.
21 The divine brothers came together,
22 Their clamour got loud, throwing Tia-mat into a turmoil.
23 They jarred the nerves of Tia-mat,
24 And by their dancing they spread alarm in Anduruna.
25 Apsû did not diminish their clamour,
26 And Tia-mat was silent when confronted with them.
27 Their conduct was displeasing to her,
28 Yet though their behaviour was not good, she wished to spare them.
29 Thereupon Apsû, the begetter of the great gods,
30 Called Mummu, his vizier, and addressed him,
31 "Vizier Mummu, who gratifies my pleasure,
32 Come, let us go to Tia-mat!"
33 They went and sat, facing Tia-mat,
34 As they conferred about the gods, their sons.
35 Apsû opened his mouth
36 And addressed Tia-mat
37 "Their behaviour has become displeasing to me
38 And I cannot rest in the day-time or sleep at night.
39 I will destroy and break up their way of life
40 That silence may reign and we may sleep."
41 When Tia-mat heard this
42 She raged and cried out to her spouse,
43 She cried in distress, fuming within herself,
44 She grieved over the (plotted) evil,
45 "How can we destroy what we have given birth to?
46 Though their behaviour causes distress, let us tighten discipline graciously."
47 Mummu spoke up with counsel for Apsû—
48 (As from) a rebellious vizier was the counsel of his Mummu—
49 "Destroy, my father, that lawless way of life,
50 That you may rest in the day-time and sleep by night!"
51 Apsû was pleased with him, his face beamed
52 Because he had plotted evil against the gods, his sons.
53 Mummu put his arms around Apsû's neck,
54 He sat on his knees kissing him.
55 What they plotted in their gathering
56 Was reported to the gods, their sons.
57 The gods heard it and were frantic.
58 They were overcome with silence and sat quietly.
59 Ea, who excels in knowledge, the skilled and learned,
60 Ea, who knows everything, perceived their tricks.
61 He fashioned it and made it to be all-embracing,
62 He executed it skilfully as supreme—his pure incantation.
63 He recited it and set it on the waters,
64 He poured sleep upon him as he was slumbering deeply.
65 He put Apsû to slumber as he poured out sleep,
66 And Mummu, the counsellor, was breathless with agitation.
67 He split (Apsû's) sinews, ripped off his crown,
68 Carried away his aura and put it on himself.
69 He bound Apsû and killed him;
70 Mummu he confined and handled roughly.
71 He set his dwelling upon Apsû,
72 And laid hold on Mummu, keeping the nose-rope in his hand.
73 After Ea had bound and slain his enemies,
74 Had achieved victory over his foes,
75 He rested quietly in his chamber,
76 He called it Apsû, whose shrines he appointed.
77 Then he founded his living-quarters within it,
78 And Ea and Damkina, his wife, sat in splendour.
79 In the chamber of the destinies, the room of the archetypes,
80 The wisest of the wise, the sage of the gods, Be-l was conceived.
81 In Apsû was Marduk born,
82 In pure Apsû was Marduk born.
83 Ea his father begat him,
84 Damkina his mother bore him.
85 He sucked the breasts of goddesses,
86 A nurse reared him and filled him with terror.
87 His figure was well developed, the glance of his eyes was dazzling,
88 His growth was manly, he was mighty from the beginning.
89 Anu, his father's begetter, saw him,
90 He exulted and smiled; his heart filled with joy.
91 Anu rendered him perfect: his divinity was remarkable,
92 And he became very lofty, excelling them in his attributes.
93 His members were incomprehensibly wonderful,
94 Incapable of being grasped with the mind, hard even to look on.
95 Four were his eyes, four his ears,
96 Flame shot forth as he moved his lips.
97 His four ears grew large,
93 And his eyes likewise took in everything.
99 His figure was lofty and superior in comparison with the gods,
100 His limbs were surpassing, his nature was superior.
101 'Mari-utu, Mari-utu,
102 The Son, the Sun-god, the Sun-god of the gods.'
103 He was clothed with the aura of the Ten Gods, so exalted was his strength,
104 The Fifty Dreads were loaded upon him.
105 Anu formed and gave birth to the four winds,
106 He delivered them to him, "My son, let them whirl!"
107 He formed dust and set a hurricane to drive it,
108 He made a wave to bring consternation on Tia-mat.
109 Tia-mat was confounded; day and night she was frantic.
110 The gods took no rest, they . . . . . . .
111 In their minds they plotted evil,
112 And addressed their mother Tia-mat,
113 "When Apsû, your spouse, was killed,
114 You did not go at his side, but sat quietly.
115 The four dreadful winds have been fashioned
116 To throw you into confusion, and we cannot sleep.
117 You gave no thought to Apsû, your spouse,
113 Nor to Mummu, who is a prisoner. Now you sit alone.
119 Henceforth you will be in frantic consternation!
120 And as for us, who cannot rest, you do not love us!
121 Consider our burden, our eyes are hollow.
122 Break the immovable yoke that we may sleep.
123 Make battle, avenge them!
124 [ . . ] . . . . reduce to nothingness!
125 Tia-mat heard, the speech pleased her,
126 (She said,) "Let us make demons, [as you] have advised."
127 The gods assembled within her.
128 They conceived [evil] against the gods their begetters.
129 They . . . . . and took the side of Tia-mat,
130 Fiercely plotting, unresting by night and day,
131 Lusting for battle, raging, storming,
132 They set up a host to bring about conflict.
133 Mother H(ubur, who forms everything,
134 Supplied irresistible weapons, and gave birth to giant serpents.
135 They had sharp teeth, they were merciless . . . .
136 With poison instead of blood she filled their bodies.
137 She clothed the fearful monsters with dread,
138 She loaded them with an aura and made them godlike.
139 (She said,) "Let their onlooker feebly perish,
140 May they constantly leap forward and never retire."
141 She created the Hydra, the Dragon, the Hairy Hero
142 The Great Demon, the Savage Dog, and the Scorpion-man,
143 Fierce demons, the Fish-man, and the Bull-man,