Victimology - ignoring victims of bullying taking measures into their own hands - Nicholas Cruz

This thread will be widely unpopular with a lot of people, mainly those who have never been the victim of targeted and systematic bullying

I have heard that there have been 3 teens who were students of Parkland and listed as "survivors". I have no idea if they saw Cruz during the incident or if they were 1/4 mile away on the campus in a relatively "safe" section of the campus, because that does make a significant difference. The difference of being face to face with the shooter and someone else getting shot as compared to someone being in an entirely different building, in a locked & barricaded classroom, is one that needs to be explored. I know survivors guilt is something that many people deal with after events like this, but when these people are covered by the news months and years after the event, they rarely ever give details about how the individual interacted with the perpetrator, which really needs to be explored to get a clear picture of how they are being effected after the effects.

For each of these individuals, every single parent tells us that their child had a heart of gold, would do ANYTHING to help those in need, give the shirt off their back to help those in need, etc. They make them out to be a young Mother Theresa or Gandhi, and I have a slight problem with this when it comes to them being the protectors of innocence.

Our of the 3 children who have committed suicide since Cruz went on his shooting spree, I want to know how many of these saints reached out to Cruz before the shooting, offering them the shirt off their back, or even just moral support, their friendship or anything. After the shooting the students made it CLEARLY known that Cruz was not liked at school, he was an outcast, an oddball and someone that people just didn't like or get along with.

What is most upsetting is the life circumstances of Cruz with him bouncing around from home to home, having a step dad, a mother who had recently died, a foster family that was questionable involved with Cruz (meaning how much was he really treated like family, his being worried about getting food from the fridge outside of meal time, etc - it's clear he was not sure what "normal" family behavior was and the foster family should have picked up on this very quickly and they should have looked out for other signs of problems, but it seems they didn't give that kind of attention to Cruz).

We also heard from fellow students that he was bullied and ostracized and when he "fought back", often online after being made fun of by classmates online, these backlashes were used to make Cruz out to be some kind of psycho and unhinged. Well I can tell you, when you deal with that type of harassment and bullying on a daily basis at a place you are REQUIRED to go (and punished if you don't go) and a place that is supposed to be free of that behavior (and is free of it for 95-98% of the rest of the students), it really makes a person start to want revenge.

From 7th to 10th grade I suffered bullying by groups of boys 2-3 grades ahead of me, always in "packs" of 3-8 of them making fighting back more dangerous. They would almost always attack from behind as well, attacking from behind in the halls, pushing or tripping while doing warm up laps at track practice, stuffing me in my football locker (took 9 people to get me in with about 12 deep cuts on my fingers, hands and forehead - coaches/admin did nothing) Whenever it was 1-on-1, they did nothing and it was often time to get even - those were the best times! There were 100's of other incidents over that time, and I know I fantasized beating the crap out of them 1 on 1 or maybe worse, but I would never go past a fist fight b/c I didn't want to let down my family and friends. Also, don't think for a moment that girls are not involved in bullying, only a couple did it to me and it was usually false claims made to a teacher or admin but they did it openly to other girls.

So all this crying about the teens who commit suicide because of survivors guilt while we vilainize the shooter, I have to ask the parents, what did your golden child do to help Nicholas Cruz, the outcast known throughout the school? How many times did they speak to him, extend a hand of friendship or offer a sympathetic ear? I mean, that is exactly how they were just described as doing, or are they just like all the other bullies in the school who ignored the "odd ball" and got their jollies when others made fun of them, getting off that THEY weren't the one being picked on. I say SHAME on these parents for canonizing their child who picked the easy way out instead of trying to fight against the exact problem that caused them so much pain, and by that I DON'T mean those big, scary BLACK GUNs, but bullying and exclusion.
If reporters were worth a damn, they would ask questions like this, but we know that goes against vilinizing the person who was victimized for YEARS until they coulnd't take it anymore and acted out against the offenders - so let's victimize the offenders. Great strategy. It's the same as the democrat's do with making criminals into victims and police into the "bad guy".

Grand Juries are coming to town!
We are making our list and checking it twice,
Gonna find out who's a lying hypocrite,
Grand juries are coming to town.

We see you when your tweeting (/texting/posting),
we know when you are lying,
we know that you have sold your soul,
so you better run and hide! Hey!

I'll work on this and make it better for Christmas of this year..

Interesting post. I've often wondered this as well with school shootings.

To be clear, I am not advocating, supporting, or justifying any school shooter. However, I've often wondered how much was driven by the bullying and what responsibility do the victims have in their own demise in these circumstances. It seems like we never really know. It seems like never really get the complete story from both sides.

I graduated from high school almost 30 years ago. We used to joke about kids who were being bullied as future serial killers. I never bullied much myself, but was certainly bullied by older kids. That is just part of growing up. However, there were some kids who were most certainly frequently targeted and constantly bullied and I could see how it could just really trigger them.

I stopped bullying/laughing at kids (for the most part) when I saw the hurt on this girls face when I was middle school. I'll never forget it or her. This girl was kind of weird / slow and not very attractive. She would just get bullied to no end. I'll just never forget her being bullied while a teacher was out of the room and I looked at her and she stared back at me and it was like I was looking into her soul. Kind of like looking into someone's eyes as they are dying. It really shook me and from that point on, I've never bullied others.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Great post! I was bullied when I was younger, then by the time I got into high school that all changed and the bullies feared me. I hit a grow spurt and got tall and wide and was a nonsense punk rocker. I would embarrass the bullies in school in front of everyone!

Once during class there were a group of guys picking on this poor guy that prolly didn't have very many friends and had just broken his arm so he had a full arm cast on. I had yelled at the guys to leave him alone. Of course one of them asks me what I was going to do if they didn't? I told him to keep it up and he would find out. Well of course they continued to pick on the poor guy so I got up from my desk, walked up behind the kid who asked what I was going to do, grabbed the back of his head and smashed his face into his desk about 5 times. Needless to say I got sent to the office. Best part was that I didn't get in any trouble for it. The teacher and principal actually thanked me but told me not do it again. (or just don't get caught)

I haven't had time to read the replies, but I'm glad to see it wasn't universally condemned right off the bat. I too don't condone what Cruz did, but I think his strife has been completely ignored to the detriment of the nation (especially school kids), b/c they think this happened for no reason. If they understood the extent of the bullying and circumstances Cruz was dealing with, they might not be so scared that "ANYONE" of their school mates could do this one day, no, it's people who have been terrorized by punk classmates and no one stood up for him while it was happening. It might have been averted by a SINGLE student standing up for him and telling that punks to F-off, leave him alone, he's been through so much BS already... Doing what he did was an act of desperation and some might say bravery, because I'm guessing he was hoping it would force conversation on bullying while getting his revenge. In his mind, that of an arrested developed adolescent, I don't think there was the ability to completely think out all the consequences that knocking over those domino's would have. It seems like it was "some what" a spur of the moment idea that festered and grew as the bullying continued and the events in his life continued to become worse - so there wasn't much re-thinking his plan he had committed to, the events since his decision probably seemed like evidence to support his original plan, and it most likely seemed "right" in his mind and perspective.

I feel bad for all the students who went through this but banning guns is ridiculous. Banning bullying would be more effective in stopping school shootings, but since that doesn't work, being nicer on a personal level could make a world of difference in the "would be" shooters mind and life. The change needs to come from the students, not the world changing around them to "fix" a problem that is relatively rare and largely created by the students themselves.

As some have said, they too were bullied, as was I, and it gets pass down, much like family abuse - from one generation to the next, or one class to the next. Too often, there will be one "soft target" that gets the bulk of the bullying b/c it's safe for the bullies. If the victim fights back, they know the other bullies will step in to get their back, so there is safety in numbers. It's a sickness in a lot of families an institutions. This type of thing also happens in the work place, I've seen it and have had it happen to me.

When i was younger it was because of my religion (didn't go to the right Christian church that 90+% the rest of the school did), so I was outcast b/c of that, nothing else. If I was picked on for hours, class after class, all recess, and I finally stood up for myself, I was the one who got punished while the a$$holes got away scott free (even after doing the bullying in front of the teacher or recess aides). It couldn't have been clearer. I know I had thoughts about what Cruz did, but I knew I would be free of them when I graduated, and when I was in 10-12th grade, no one messed with me b/c I had gotten bigger and wasn't afraid to fight back, or track them down to where they were alone and scare the pizz out of them - they are always tough when it's 4-8 of them, but 1 on 1 it's always "Hey dude, you know i'm just bustin your balls, I don't got a problem with you, you know we are friends..." and then a little intimidation (physical or verbal - nothing too rough) and the message gets across real quick and that usually ends that punks shenanigans and often word gets out to the rest of the crowd and they stop as well.

It taught me a lesson that those in power stick up for their own and will walk all over the "other" even when they are obliged to protect them and punish those doing wrong. It made me hate those people and I still remember their FUGLY fat faces to this day (the recess aids with kankles that make Hillary look like a supermodel).

You have to remember that this was also a disturbed kid. He had had multiple run-ins with the law and likely would have been in trouble with the criminal justice system had there not been a program specifically designed to let juvenile offenders go in Parkland.

For whatever reason, Cruz fell through the cracks on multiple levels.

I am not going to excuse his fellow students for bullying him. No one deserves to be bullied, but I don't blame them for not wanting to hang out with someone who was mentally disturbed either. It's pretty clear from details that Cruz, like Lanza, had some issues that should have been dealt with and weren't.

My son has an issue with a kid in his class who has really, really bad social skills. It's like having a stalker, and he drives my son nuts. I've told my son that kindness costs him nothing, but that at the same time, he isn't obligated to be a friend beyond being pleasant. And don't let anyone bully either; just because that kid has bad social skills is no reason for others to torment him. Life is hard enough when you can't figure out how to be friendly the right way.

When I was in junior high, I was picked on and bullied for being "different". My crime? Having long hair, wearing metal band t-shirts, refusing to conform with the group, and being intelligent.

I listened to my father on the topic. "A bully is really just a coward at heart. Don't start anything, but if they hit you first, make them regret it."

That's exactly what I did. If I got tripped, slapped, punched, shoved, etc..., I did my best to draw blood, and often did. They usually left in worse shape than me. Eventually they learned that it wasn't worth their time to bother me. When I graduated to high school, my reputation preceded me and I was never really bullied again.

My understanding (at least in the local schools) is that even clear self-defense caught on tape with corroborating witnesses still gets the victim of bullying punished with detention, suspension, or expulsion. Kids aren't allowed to stand up for themselves.

Let a few of these kids knock their bully's face in the dirt and it'll stop.

a reply to: DigginFoTroof

It's up to the parents to teach their kids how to respond to bullying. A loving parent will teach them how to deal with bullying so you don't take a gun to school for revenge, or take a gun to your head to leave the world behind. I'm sure most of us were bullied at some point. I was bullied from 6th to 8th grade by a fat black kid that was 2 grades behind, as were 3 or 4 other white kids in my class. It got even worse in high school my Freshman year when a friend of mine told me he was at one of our friend's houses and was peeping at our friend's mom under the door while she changed clothes and he got a hard on while he watched. I told him he was wrong for doing it, but the next day when I got to school, he was telling everyone it was me and that I was beating off while I watched my best friend's mom. We fought and that stopped his rumor, but in a small school it was too late, the damage was done. In Shop class, several Seniors (baseball jocks) gathered around me and started telling me how disgusting i was and stuff like that. I was able to shrug it off for about 30 minutes but then I broke down. Laid my head on my desk and couldn't help it, I started crying. I guess because they were guys I'd looked up to because I was trying out for the baseball team. It stopped after that besides the occasional jab which I ignored. A couple of kids in my class would still mess with me sometimes throughout the year but when I started laughing with them and they realized they weren't bothering me, they got bored and moved on to the next guy. That was the last time I got bullied. I remember that it sucked going to school for a little while, but shooting these people or killing myself never crossed my mind.

originally posted by: JFA13
a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Great post! I was bullied when I was younger, then by the time I got into high school that all changed and the bullies feared me. I hit a grow spurt and got tall and wide and was a nonsense punk rocker. I would embarrass the bullies in school in front of everyone!

Once during class there were a group of guys picking on this poor guy that prolly didn't have very many friends and had just broken his arm so he had a full arm cast on. I had yelled at the guys to leave him alone. Of course one of them asks me what I was going to do if they didn't? I told him to keep it up and he would find out. Well of course they continued to pick on the poor guy so I got up from my desk, walked up behind the kid who asked what I was going to do, grabbed the back of his head and smashed his face into his desk about 5 times. Needless to say I got sent to the office. Best part was that I didn't get in any trouble for it. The teacher and principal actually thanked me but told me not do it again. (or just don't get caught)

Great story. I started gaining popularity around the end of my Sophomore year and would always take up for the kids that were being bullied, too. I couldn't stand watching someone get bullied unless it was another bully.

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
When I was in junior high, I was picked on and bullied for being "different". My crime? Having long hair, wearing metal band t-shirts, refusing to conform with the group, and being intelligent.

I listened to my father on the topic. "A bully is really just a coward at heart. Don't start anything, but if they hit you first, make them regret it."

That's exactly what I did. If I got tripped, slapped, punched, shoved, etc..., I did my best to draw blood, and often did. They usually left in worse shape than me. Eventually they learned that it wasn't worth their time to bother me. When I graduated to high school, my reputation preceded me and I was never really bullied again.

My understanding (at least in the local schools) is that even clear self-defense caught on tape with corroborating witnesses still gets the victim of bullying punished with detention, suspension, or expulsion. Kids aren't allowed to stand up for themselves.

Let a few of these kids knock their bully's face in the dirt and it'll stop.

Yeah it's ridiculous thew way the schools handle things today. I've always taught my kids not to start anything but to always stand up for themselves and don't be afraid of getting in trouble because if they get punished for standing up to a bully, I'll be at the school immediately. But if I ever catch them bullying an innocent kid, I'm beating their ass. I'll never raise a bully or a brat.

a reply to: cynicalheathen

It's a zero tolerance thing.

It's what will happen to ours if he stands up to himself. We told him plain that he is never, ever to start anything, but that if any kid comes after him to hurt him, he can do whatever to make it stop. He can use whatever he's been trained to to do, but he needs to handle it exactly like he's been trained to: do everything possible to avoid confrontation, only use enough force to stop the kid hurting him, and then get an adult.

We've told him if he ever has to actually do that, he'll get in trouble from the school. It's their policy, but if he only defended himself, then we'll back him 100%.

originally posted by: LSU2018

originally posted by: JFA13
a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Great post! I was bullied when I was younger, then by the time I got into high school that all changed and the bullies feared me. I hit a grow spurt and got tall and wide and was a nonsense punk rocker. I would embarrass the bullies in school in front of everyone!

Once during class there were a group of guys picking on this poor guy that prolly didn't have very many friends and had just broken his arm so he had a full arm cast on. I had yelled at the guys to leave him alone. Of course one of them asks me what I was going to do if they didn't? I told him to keep it up and he would find out. Well of course they continued to pick on the poor guy so I got up from my desk, walked up behind the kid who asked what I was going to do, grabbed the back of his head and smashed his face into his desk about 5 times. Needless to say I got sent to the office. Best part was that I didn't get in any trouble for it. The teacher and principal actually thanked me but told me not do it again. (or just don't get caught)

Great story. I started gaining popularity around the end of my Sophomore year and would always take up for the kids that were being bullied, too. I couldn't stand watching someone get bullied unless it was another bully.

I definitely got a reputation for bullying the bullies. Hell I guess I still do. I worked as a bouncer at bars for 15 years and most of the bars I hangout at now, the bartenders always tell me that they are glad that I am there.

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
When I was in junior high, I was picked on and bullied for being "different". My crime? Having long hair, wearing metal band t-shirts, refusing to conform with the group, and being intelligent.

I listened to my father on the topic. "A bully is really just a coward at heart. Don't start anything, but if they hit you first, make them regret it."

That's exactly what I did. If I got tripped, slapped, punched, shoved, etc..., I did my best to draw blood, and often did. They usually left in worse shape than me. Eventually they learned that it wasn't worth their time to bother me. When I graduated to high school, my reputation preceded me and I was never really bullied again.

My understanding (at least in the local schools) is that even clear self-defense caught on tape with corroborating witnesses still gets the victim of bullying punished with detention, suspension, or expulsion. Kids aren't allowed to stand up for themselves.
Let a few of these kids knock their bully's face in the dirt and it'll stop.

I'll bet you are 100% correct about the victim getting in trouble as well, even for protecting themselves. This was happening at least since 1987 as that was the rule where I was. You could be sitting on the bus minding your own business staring out the window and get smacked HARD in the ear from behind, and when you turned around to confront the perpetrator, BAM, the person in front of you (working with the thug behind you) smacks you again in the other ear while the person you are facing starts pushing, punching, spitting, etc and when you do anything to make it stop, even just protecting yourself, you are kicked off the bus. Sometimes the perpetrators weren't b/c they lived "too far" away, and living 4 miles was close enough to walk.

I'd watch the bus driver peer up at her huge 3ft wide mirror (give whole view of bus) and know she saw me being attacked, but she would keep her mouth shut and say she only saw me hitting, or that I started it and there were others fighting me as well. The school wouldn't ask the other kids who witnessed it, they would have corroborated my story b/c 95% hated the bullies as well, but that wouldn't have helped their cause (schools actively target families they don't like for some reason) and they said it might lead to them getting bullied if they told on the bullies (even though it would have been confidential in the principals office).

I promise there is A LOT we are not being told about this case, how much trouble he got in, how many times he got in trouble or was bullied that wasn't on official record. Schools do a darn good job not reporting incidents that support kids they don't like - those reports often slip through the cracks and it ends up making one kid look like the sole trouble maker. This kind of thing will inevitably create kids like Cruz - 90% of the time. Now much less will do what Cruz did, but they will have the same thoughts and similar behavior (isolated, loaner, being a "wierdo", etc) all b/c he is used to being crapped on by the system that the admin calls "fair and equitable". So from his point of view, he has no other choice but to take matters into his own hands, because from where he stands, the rest of his life is going to be like this with the "fair and equitable" justice system, colleges and work places. So why not do what he did, no one listened to him, or believed him. He was just an angry, ill adjusted kid that needed to be pumped full of psychotropic drugs (which MAKE people suicidal and homicidal, especially during puberty and periods of high testosterone production - ask any teen who has been on them, I'll bet over 90% will say they were worse while on them). Then they get punished when they "don't comply" with the forced medication and are labeled another bad term (whatever it is - anti-authoritarian or whatever) and the snowball grows.

You can look at prison studies where you take the meanest kids in there and put them in an isolated environment with someone who is compassionate, caring and non-judgmental, and they often open up like a book. They aren't rude, disrespectful or violent - this often takes a little while for them to realize they aren't in a hostile environment, but when they do, you will often see a completely different person. This is why the prison industrial complex is the exact opposite of what should be in place. Granted there are some people who need separation, but mixing THOSE people with generally non-violent criminals turns those people into more hardened people - recipe for a downward spiral.


BAN BULLYING
NOT GUNS!!!

originally posted by: LSU2018
a reply to: DigginFoTroof

It's up to the parents to teach their kids how to respond to bullying. A loving parent will teach them how to deal with bullying so you don't take a gun to school for revenge, or take a gun to your head to leave the world behind. I'm sure most of us were bullied at some point. I was bullied from 6th to 8th grade by a fat black kid that was 2 grades behind, as were 3 or 4 other white kids in my class. It got even worse in high school my Freshman year when a friend of mine told me he was at one of our friend's houses and was peeping at our friend's mom under the door while she changed clothes and he got a hard on while he watched. I told him he was wrong for doing it, but the next day when I got to school, he was telling everyone it was me and that I was beating off while I watched my best friend's mom. We fought and that stopped his rumor, but in a small school it was too late, the damage was done. In Shop class, several Seniors (baseball jocks) gathered around me and started telling me how disgusting i was and stuff like that. I was able to shrug it off for about 30 minutes but then I broke down. Laid my head on my desk and couldn't help it, I started crying. I guess because they were guys I'd looked up to because I was trying out for the baseball team. It stopped after that besides the occasional jab which I ignored. A couple of kids in my class would still mess with me sometimes throughout the year but when I started laughing with them and they realized they weren't bothering me, they got bored and moved on to the next guy. That was the last time I got bullied. I remember that it sucked going to school for a little while, but shooting these people or killing myself never crossed my mind.

IDK when or where you went to school, that makes a HUGE difference. When I was in school the rules on bullying (in 1987) were if you fought back, you were JUST as guilty as the aggressor. Even just protecting yourself to end a beating would result in detention/suspension. You were supposed to run to a teacher or "recess aide", but that doesn't work when you are being held down being kicked & punched by 2-10 people, or if you are cornered in a bathroom by a few kids. The thing was (and is I'm guessing) is even if you don't fight back and report it, the bully lies and says "you started it..." or would say "he fought back", so you end up with a record for fighting. This happened time and time again at my school and happened to me at least 10 times. You would have thought I was a thug looking at my behavioral chart, even though every single case was self defense and at a level MUCH less than the assault I was taking.

It was nice to see these bullies outside of school or at a sporting event (like a practice) because then the rules were totally different and the coaches supported fighting back and teaching them a lesson, so no writeups even if blood was drawn.

originally posted by: JFA13
a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Great post! I was bullied when I was younger, then by the time I got into high school that all changed and the bullies feared me. I hit a grow spurt and got tall and wide and was a nonsense punk rocker. I would embarrass the bullies in school in front of everyone!

Once during class there were a group of guys picking on this poor guy that prolly didn't have very many friends and had just broken his arm so he had a full arm cast on. I had yelled at the guys to leave him alone. Of course one of them asks me what I was going to do if they didn't? I told him to keep it up and he would find out. Well of course they continued to pick on the poor guy so I got up from my desk, walked up behind the kid who asked what I was going to do, grabbed the back of his head and smashed his face into his desk about 5 times. Needless to say I got sent to the office. Best part was that I didn't get in any trouble for it. The teacher and principal actually thanked me but told me not do it again. (or just don't get caught)

Hey, I meant to ask (if you don't mind dating yourself by revealing your HS dates) when did this event happen (the arm cast guy)? The reason I am wondering is b/c it seems there is a very wide range in how bullying was handled in the past. Some were allowed to fight back, others were punished the same as the aggressor. I'm wondering if this was a nationwide trend that went into effect around the same time, or if it was more or less adopted at different times school by school or possibly by state rules/legislation? I think this is a really important topic to figure out what is going on with bullying. When and where these rules started might shed some light on the overall issue. I know there was no difference between bully and bullied (if they fought back) by 1987 where I was, so my entire school tenure - which really sucked.

originally posted by: LSU2018

originally posted by: cynicalheathen
When I was in junior high, I was picked on and bullied for being "different". My crime? Having long hair, wearing metal band t-shirts, refusing to conform with the group, and being intelligent.

I listened to my father on the topic. "A bully is really just a coward at heart. Don't start anything, but if they hit you first, make them regret it."

That's exactly what I did. If I got tripped, slapped, punched, shoved, etc..., I did my best to draw blood, and often did. They usually left in worse shape than me. Eventually they learned that it wasn't worth their time to bother me. When I graduated to high school, my reputation preceded me and I was never really bullied again.

My understanding (at least in the local schools) is that even clear self-defense caught on tape with corroborating witnesses still gets the victim of bullying punished with detention, suspension, or expulsion. Kids aren't allowed to stand up for themselves.

Let a few of these kids knock their bully's face in the dirt and it'll stop.

Yeah it's ridiculous thew way the schools handle things today. I've always taught my kids not to start anything but to always stand up for themselves and don't be afraid of getting in trouble because if they get punished for standing up to a bully, I'll be at the school immediately. But if I ever catch them bullying an innocent kid, I'm beating their ass. I'll never raise a bully or a brat.

I think that is the perfect way to handle it, but what happens when your kid stands up for himself (or someone else) and gets caught up in the "equally at fault" rule (bully & bullied equally at fault if bullied fights back). You can raise all the hell you want with the school office but it's still going to be on their permanent record, and some colleges will reject kids for one incident. THAT is how much is at stake in this. Hell you can kill a person and get in the military, straight up murder (1st degree) and get in if you are a minority and a "youf".

I see the makings of a great EXPOSE (French pernounciation) of this topic and possibly a book. I think this is a hidden epidemic in this nation, an epidemic of silence which has manifested in school shootings. An epidemic of equally blaming both sides no matter the situation or level of violence visited on one by the other.

I've read a LOT of REDDIT posts for years where it has become clear that this might be the next biggest issue in schools besides the poor level of education. This issue often effects whites & asians disproportionately (as per the posts & police reports from large cities) with latinos coming in a fair bit behind those groups. Now I'm sure there are blacks that suffer the same thing, but I'm guessing that much of this bullying is the result of the other groups having to attend largely black schools, so they are naturally "outsiders" which just happens to be determined by race. All you have to do is listen to Howard Stern tell his stories of growing up being the only white boy in his school to know that this type of thing has been going on for a LONG time.

But all in all, I think the bullying is something the schools do their best to brush under the rug and keep as quiet as possible even by means of intimidation and punishing those who dare to speak out (about the unfair rules). I'll do some research into this and see what I can find on nationwide bullying. We had the first case of cyber-bullying causing suicide b/c the bully was on her cell phone egging the person on. Thankfully she was found guilty.

OP, did you mean to say that 3 survivors of the Parkland Shooting have committed suicide? Either you left a word or two out of that sentence, or I'm denser than usual.

Great topic to bring up and pretty brave of you. Although of course I agree that Cruz was clearly badly affected by the bullying he endured, like Ketsuko pointed out- he was a disturbed kid. He clearly had mental issues and an unstable home life. And I hate to say it but I think foster homes are more often hurtful than helpful. A lot of abuse goes on in foster homes. So the deck was stacked against this poor kid.

That's not to remove responsibility from him. He pulled that trigger at his classmates in cold blood. There are countless numbers of kids who are bullied and never end up mowing down their classmates; just look at the responses from the fine members in this thread. Nor does it mean that the kids at his high school who tormented don't have a contributing role..if the kids who did bully him, if they continue to be bullies to others after what happened, then there is little hope for them to become decent people. I hope the parents of the bulliers have opened a dialogue about it with their bully kids, but I doubt it.

I was bullied once, on the playground across the street from my house, one summer evening. My twin brother and a friend was with me, we were in first grade. A group of 4 older kids cornered us and told us all to lie down in the dirt (after shoving us each and spitting on us- they were older kids and all were FAT, so no way did our skinny-ass first grade bodies have any chance at getting away). They told us to eat dirt. I started getting pretty pissed at this point and said no, while our friend Sara went ahead and put a fistful of dirt in her mouth. I don't remember if my twin brother did or not. One of the big boys kicked some dirt and gravel in my face and repeated the command and I said no and right then they all started looking off into the distance, distracted. Suddenly they ran away. When we stood up, my big brother (who is 8 years older) was standing there and asking if we were hurt, and when he saw that we weren't, he took off after those kids. He chased them for four blocks where they ran inside a house. My brother knocked on the door and told the adult who answered what happened. My big brother to this day will not tolerate ANY type of bullying.

So, mild bully story, but I remember the disconcerting mix of feelings- shame and humiliation along with red hot anger. I can imagine that if you were bullied all your life and you were mentally or emotionally challenged to boot, that it would be easy to snap. It had to be pretty extreme, whatever Cruz's issues were though, to snap in a way that you plan and carry out the cold blooded murder of your peers. I think that must be a special kind of mental/emotional disturbance mixed with extreme bullying, for the snap to be that extreme. It's pretty disgusting that he wasn't stopped, since clearly he was on the radar of school officials, and of course as we found out after his crime, even the FBI were informed. Inexcusable.

originally posted by: KansasGirl
OP, did you mean to say that 3 survivors of the Parkland Shooting have committed suicide? Either you left a word or two out of that sentence, or I'm denser than usual.

Great topic to bring up and pretty brave of you. Although of course I agree that Cruz was clearly badly affected by the bullying he endured, like Ketsuko pointed out- he was a disturbed kid. He clearly had mental issues and an unstable home life. And I hate to say it but I think foster homes are more often hurtful than helpful. A lot of abuse goes on in foster homes. So the deck was stacked against this poor kid.

That's not to remove responsibility from him. He pulled that trigger at his classmates in cold blood. There are countless numbers of kids who are bullied and never end up mowing down their classmates; just look at the responses from the fine members in this thread. Nor does it mean that the kids at his high school who tormented don't have a contributing role..if the kids who did bully him, if they continue to be bullies to others after what happened, then there is little hope for them to become decent people. I hope the parents of the bulliers have opened a dialogue about it with their bully kids, but I doubt it.

I was bullied once, on the playground across the street from my house, one summer evening. My twin brother and a friend was with me, we were in first grade. A group of 4 older kids cornered us and told us all to lie down in the dirt (after shoving us each and spitting on us- they were older kids and all were FAT, so no way did our skinny-ass first grade bodies have any chance at getting away). They told us to eat dirt. I started getting pretty pissed at this point and said no, while our friend Sara went ahead and put a fistful of dirt in her mouth. I don't remember if my twin brother did or not. One of the big boys kicked some dirt and gravel in my face and repeated the command and I said no and right then they all started looking off into the distance, distracted. Suddenly they ran away. When we stood up, my big brother (who is 8 years older) was standing there and asking if we were hurt, and when he saw that we weren't, he took off after those kids. He chased them for four blocks where they ran inside a house. My brother knocked on the door and told the adult who answered what happened. My big brother to this day will not tolerate ANY type of bullying.

So, mild bully story, but I remember the disconcerting mix of feelings- shame and humiliation along with red hot anger. I can imagine that if you were bullied all your life and you were mentally or emotionally challenged to boot, that it would be easy to snap. It had to be pretty extreme, whatever Cruz's issues were though, to snap in a way that you plan and carry out the cold blooded murder of your peers. I think that must be a special kind of mental/emotional disturbance mixed with extreme bullying, for the snap to be that extreme. It's pretty disgusting that he wasn't stopped, since clearly he was on the radar of school officials, and of course as we found out after his crime, even the FBI were informed. Inexcusable.

Thanks for the reply and stories. I have to say, I don't know if I missed some words or not, but yesterday or a couple days ago, a classmate of Cruz killed themselves and that now makes 3 since the incident. Supposedly they were all suffering form survivors guilt and probably PTSD. I'm at a little loss for words when it comes to that and this is because I'm comparing what Cruz went through (pre shooting) and what these kids went through - and the media (I only had NPR on the radio today) covered this story at least 20x over the course of 5-6 hours - that is not an exaggeration either. They talk about how strong and angelic the person was and how they would be there to help anyone who ever needed anything. It's basically the same story they had for the previous 2 suicides, but this one got more coverage probably b/c of the current body count.

As far as your story, and not to minimize it in any way as I have a similar story that I was told by my mom. She told me how horribly she was bullied in school and I finally asked her to tell me a story. When she was done, I asked where the bullying was, b/c I was expecting some sexual assault, rape, physical attack or AT LEAST some verbal abuse - but no, it was making her uncomfortable about how she pronounced some foreign word in 6th or 8th grade, and corrected about it in front of the class by a native speaker of the language - leading the class to snicker a little. I was about 32 when I heard this and it changed my view of my mom forever. Whenever I was bullied she would tell me basically "deal with it" b/c she had been through it when she was younger. Well, on a relative scale her bullying was a 1/100 and I was dealing with a 90-93/100 on a daily basis in 8th - 10th grade - and in her mind, they were equally as damaging. I asked if there was any other incidents b/c I thought there HAD to be for all the times she used her being bullied as an excuse for me to "suck it up", but it was that one, 5 second episode. I didn't want to talk to her for almost a year after that and made me realize even those you love can't always be taken at face value.

So when people talk about bullying, there is a MASSIVE range (the above stories are great examples of different severities) and when you are in the upper range for a long time and also have family tragedy compounding those issues, I can't even imagine what mindset that would put a person in, and I sincerely feel for Mr Cruz b/c when you think about it, the whole school knew about his family issues (mom dying) and him being in foster care (this was stated by students while being interviewed on the news) and I want to know where these angelic students, who couldn't continue on with life, were when Cruz was hurting so badly and obviously in desperate need of help, compassion, a friend, etc. If only there was something where people could easily communicate with each other and express their feelings, condolences, support, etc. If only someone would invent something like that, then they could start working on building compassionate people.

I think you make a good point.

People knowingly push people to the edge. This is American culture and its pervasive as an adult as well as people have stopped maturing in adulthood.

I believe social isolation is probably one of the biggest factors in a lot of these shootings.

In America every man is an island and the product of this culture is reaping it's just rewards.

What a sad state of affairs.

originally posted by: toysforadults
I think you make a good point.

People knowingly push people to the edge. This is American culture and its pervasive as an adult as well as people have stopped maturing in adulthood.

I believe social isolation is probably one of the biggest factors in a lot of these shootings.

In America every man is an island and the product of this culture is reaping it's just rewards.

What a sad state of affairs.

One of the things I found most egregious by the MSM was the way they treated Cruz's brother the first time he talked to him (which I think was the day the event happened). His brother said something simple like "I love you" and was basically supportive of him EMOTIONALLY, and I think he just wanted Nicholas to know that his brother was there and hadn't turned his back on him. Well the press went off on him and villainized him saying things like "how can you condone the monstrous acts your brother committed" and they made it out that his brother was supportive of Nick's actions, and glad he had done what he had. If you listened to the news report, that is what you would probably have taken away from it and thought his brother was happy Nick did the shooting.

Then the media talked about him behind his back for days, saying things like "what kind of family is this...." it was sickening. I guarantee had a moslem done a shooting like this and his/her parents or family came in and said "You know we love you" and "you will be free soon, inshallah" (god willing). I'd bet that wouldn't get anywhere near the coverage, FOX would be all over it, but the rest would be mum.

I'd like to look deeper into other mass shooters, be they large #'s or something like 2+ shootings at schools. How many of these were targeted at bullies and a result of bullying in school.