Alabama judge allows lawsuit that names aborted fetus as co-plaintiff.

a reply to: riiver

There's a lot of argument about when fetuses are capable of feeling pain; one side of the argument says the nervous system isn't developed enough to experience pain until the third trimester, but the other side says it may happen by 20 weeks. If the fetus can feel pain, that makes it an entirely different scenario in my book.

Excellent point. I know efforts have been made in the past to sedate the fetus before abortions to (hopefully) eliminate the baby feeling pain, but those efforts have been shouted down. Presumably because doing so would be admitting that it may not be just a "clump of cells" after all. I would still prefer that if the deed must be done, that we err on the side of caution and administer sedatives. Doesn't "admit" really anything more than the possibility. And our humanity.

Also, the line demarcating viability has moved a lot since we all had kids. I believe the youngest preemie to survive was only 21 weeks gestation, and it's increasingly common for 24-week preemies to survive. The second trimester ends at 26 weeks, so that makes it a much bigger moral dilemma than a 1st-trimester abortion, imo.

Wow. I had no idea. That's pretty amazing -- and pretty important in this discussion. Thanks for adding that!

Just my 2 cents. Great discussion!

Right back atcha

I really enjoyed this and appreciated digging into the minutiae, as Redneck put it. We all did good! (At least in my seldom humble opinion...)

a reply to: Boadicea

Lol. I'm afraid other posters might feel this has degenerated into the Boadicea, Redneck, and riiver thread, lol, but it's been a great discussion.

And off topic, I just sent y'all both a book-length pm. I apologize in advance for the length and wordiness.

a reply to: Boadicea

I like that. I would also like one of the above -- either the doctor or pro-life group -- to be able to inform her of social and educational programs that could assist her, hook her up with non-profit agencies, I don't know what all exactly. But whatever she needs to complete her pregnancy and raise her child.

That's the idea. The pro-choice counseling session would likely show her all the advantages of having the abortion, and the pro-life counseling would likely show her the advantages of keeping the child, both from a biased perspective. Then she could be given facts by the most knowledgeable professional she has contact with to sort out who is telling facts and who is not.

I am a firm believer that there is a government role in ensuring fairness and adequate knowledge of products and services offered, but not so much in making the actual decisions. I believe people should decide for themselves, but I also believe they should do so with full knowledge (or at least access to) all the pertinent facts.

This would also solve the problem of babies who survive their abortions, and hopefully reduce the need for partial birth abortions to virtually zero.

That's the part I like as well. I really have little issue with first trimester abortions, but partial birth is horrendous to me. In between, the longer a woman waits, the more I come to see the "right to abortion" as the "right to kill." I can mentally file a threat to the mother's life as self-defense, but for convenience? No, never could I condone a partial birth abortion for that.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Boadicea

Man was not given dominion over women either. We were and are meant to be partners, working together, combining our strengths and skills to achieve more and better than we ever could alone.

Absolutely!

I'm thinking it won't surprise you that I had that exact scripture in mind as well...

Actually, yes it did... but it was a pleasant surprise.

TheRedneck

a reply to: richapau

This will get overturned. Fetuses don't have standing

No decision has been made in this case, so nothing can be overturned yet. Standing has already been established; the judge has agreed to hear the case.

The plaintiffs will not prevail; I think everyone knows that. The girl is 16, and the boy is 19. That in itself, if nothing else, makes a successful suit a long shot at best. But that's not what is important here: the fact that legal standing has been verified sets a precedence for other cases. The absolute most that pro-abortion advocates can hope for is for the judge to state a major limitation in his decision as to future legal standing... and that is rare.

TheRedneck