Misinformed youth

I am seeing alot of youngsters throw the terms left and right around but do they realize that things are more complexed than that. And that to stay coherent and intellectually honest they should research the history of what they are and what they fight. Do antifa warriors know that Fascism is a left socialist movement born in the revolutionary movement of unions? That antifascism has roots in a deeply pro monarchy/conservative ideology? That contrary to nazism and communism, Fascism was put forward by the middle class in an attempt to gain political access through legitimate means? Of course you dont.

a reply to: Golantrevize

As someone who works with college kids:

Far to few research their own opinions, but instead rely on trusted individuals and headlines to form their opinions for them.
I try to challenge them when I can do so and not immediately "offend." When they do their own research, I'm always surprised with the results.

a reply to: Golantrevize

Can you blame them? understanding politics is like trying to understand quantum mechanics.

It's very complex-I own a copy of The Prince and I nearly had a stroke, I don't call someone a fascist because I don't agree with them, I don't know what it means and neither do these kids but they use it anyway. I've got a political textbook and you are correct, you're either a libtard or rebtard these days, the political ancestry is like a tree, it branches off in many directions.

To some up the state of modern politics I'll quote Machiavelli 'A prudent ruler cannot and must not honor his word.'

a reply to: Golantrevize

Look how the Right wingers here on this site throw around terms like socialism and communism, people throwing around labels they clearly don't understand is very common, and these are adults on this forum doing it so it's not just an issue for the youth.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
Right wingers on what axis?
Pot, meet Kettle


Anyhow, the problem with "right vs left" politics is all based upon the closest axis between the two major political parties in the US when relating to political discussion. It isn't that people don't acknowledge viewpoints outside of them, but more so that in everyday conversation when relating to politics in the US different viewpoints are generalized to fit closer in proximity to one of the two political parties and thus is associated with that party due to proximity. Sure you can make 4 to 5 dimensional analysis of political stances and how they align or don't, but who outside of the most gung ho political analysts would even bother to define things that precisely when generalizations are what are required to converse?

It comes down to reductio ad absurdum. Sure as a person who studied politics I could talk about the finer points in difference between the SPD in Germany and the Ticino League in Switzerland, but the point would be lost in scope. The major issues has to do with a defined battle ground made up of specific arguments and tenants of their platforms. Controlling the battleground of arguments is half the battle, as is the control of the language it entails. However what nobody seems to take into consideration is the middle ground that is created through political parties, and how having a defined battle ground for arguments to be used allows for some semblance of order in the chaos that is politics.

Unfortunately in our current system there is no real leftist group with both parties swinging pretty far to corporate and foreign policy right wing. The capitalists who control our society have the whole republican and Democratic groups working for them, and what we experience now is the end result of unfettered capitalism. The Kings of capital make the rules and few other voices are heard. Then we have the msm and groups like Cambridge analyticaa intentionally obfuscating the issues to paralyze the public with beffudlement. The result is a hopeless debacle in congress where the only things that get past are the lowest denominators of policy where special interest groups get the bailouts and everyone else loses.

a reply to: pexx421
again the left vs right argument is dependent on what axis you choose to see as left vs right. The problem with a lack of diversity is not due to capitalism in the US, it has to do with the form of government and the structure with which it was formed, that has been exacerbated through the formation of political parties that was specifically warned against by several founding fathers who had the foresight to realize that the formation of political parties would inherently create a systemic bias to a two party system, and due to this progress through constant progression to it's current form of ever expanding government. All of this before modern corporations were the twinkle in the eyes of businesses at large.

The analysis of how to manipulate people politically has existed far far longer than the short attention of modern politics in the US would let you believe, and goes all the way back to the foundation of political parties in the US (1796) with the Federalists and Anti-Federalists.

If you want to get into how this progressed over time, it is due to two parties feuding with one another and compromising with one another over an extended period of time. The compromising aspect of it is what created the problem. If you have two parties that are loosely affiliated within their own party, you have a constant movement to compromise, which progresses the political direction of the country, as both parties have a range of position they see as acceptable and in order to maintain their party they have some overlap. If they did not have any overlap, the other party would move it's position slightly to gain an edge in the electorate. Over time this setting and resetting through elections progressively moves the stance of the government and the institutions surrounding the government's powers, always leaning more towards expansion of powers rather than removal of powers, as nobody wants to give up any power (it would be political suicide to give up power). From this we have in the modern times, two parties that are very close to one another, and if either party gives ground the other takes that ground, and that is due to the conflict over the votes of the median citizen. Over time it will be a death of a thousand cuts (million bills), and none of it will ever be fixed with our current government form.

originally posted by: dubiousatworst
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
However what nobody seems to take into consideration is the middle ground that is created through political parties, and how having a defined battle ground for arguments to be used allows for some semblance of order in the chaos that is politics.

That's an interesting observation..

originally posted by: Golantrevize
I am seeing alot of youngsters throw the terms left and right around but do they realize that things are more complexed than that. And that to stay coherent and intellectually honest they should research the history of what they are and what they fight. Do antifa warriors know that Fascism is a left socialist movement born in the revolutionary movement of unions? That antifascism has roots in a deeply pro monarchy/conservative ideology? That contrary to nazism and communism, Fascism was put forward by the middle class in an attempt to gain political access through legitimate means? Of course you dont.

Concentration Camp System

After the SS leadership, with Hitler's blessing, detached the pre-Nazi police detective forces from state administrative and judicial oversight in the years 1933–1936, only the centralized SS and police authorities could determine who was a danger to the German “race” and order the incarceration of such persons in a concentration camp. For persons perceived to be political and racial opponents of the Reich, the Gestapo issued “protective custody” (Schutzhaft) orders, which authorized the incarceration in the camps of Jews, Social Democrats, Communists, liberals, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses, clergy who opposed the Nazis, members of national opposition movements, non-Germans in general after Germany began to occupy Europe, and any others whose behavior—real or perceived—could be interpreted as politically motivated opposition.

For persons whose real or perceived behavior or actions were considered criminal but non-political in nature, or socially deviant so as to create a so-called danger to German society, the Criminal Police office issued “preventative arrest” (Vorbeugungshaft) orders. Under these orders, which were often motivated more by racial and social prejudice than by actual criminal violations, Roma and Sinti (Gypsies), so-called asocials, repeat criminal offenders, homosexuals, and so-called security suspects were incarcerated in the concentration camps. Although the language of these arrest orders contained limits on the time during which a prisoner could be incarcerated, in practice incarcerations were routinely extended indefinitely. After World War II began, Himmler forbade in general the release of concentration camp prisoners for the duration of the war.

a reply to: oloufo

Taking a look around at our current society, I find that downright chilling.

originally posted by: randomtangentsrme
a reply to: Golantrevize

As someone who works with college kids:

Far to few research their own opinions, but instead rely on trusted individuals and headlines to form their opinions for them.
I try to challenge them when I can do so and not immediately "offend." When they do their own research, I'm always surprised with the results.

Do you teach debating skills? Have students argue for the 'other side's' position?

a reply to: Thecakeisalie

It's easier to understand politics if you look at all politicians as being the same person putting on different masks.

a reply to: oloufo

I don' t understand how your comment is relevant with what I said.

a reply to: dubiousatworst
Well said!