Trump Recognizes Guaido as Venezuela Leader, Challenging Maduro

So where are all these people doing better, then? In Africa, where we destroy their economies with predatory business practices so we can steal their resources? In South America which has all its migrants fleeing to us from their countries we’ve destroyed, like Honduras, and Venezuela? China’s doing better, I doubt India is, and I know the US, Russia and Europe aren’t.

originally posted by: pexx421
So where are all these people doing better, then? In Africa, where we destroy their economies with predatory business practices so we can steal their resources? In South America which has all its migrants fleeing to us from their countries we’ve destroyed, like Honduras, and Venezuela? China’s doing better, I doubt India is, and I know the US, Russia and Europe aren’t.

You ask me and the facts are out there if you cared...not up for debate...facts...not narratives that feed our desire to compare extremes...

a reply to: Xtrozero

I’m rhetorically asking because I doubt the “facts”. People post “facts” on here all day to show the economy is doing great. Naturally it’s all bs. I saw the same “facts” in 07. There is a greater wage gap than at any time in history, and it’s growing. That’s a fact. The eu is collapsing and Britain almost fell apart this week. That’s a fact. The us economy is in a shambles with politicians doing the opposite of what they promise, and corporations making the rules and pulling the strings. That’s a fact. You think “state capitalism” is the same as “socialism “. That’s a fact. I’m sure you will have different “facts” than mine. Naturally, yours are incorrect.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: Propagandalf

Capitalism always leads to ever increasing disparity. It’s functioning just as intended. It’s a cycle of booms and busts where the banks consolidate more and more of the wealth each time. This is how it’s always functioned in every single place it’s existed. And I don’t think we should be discussing socialism if you don’t know what it is.

Last time i checked Capitalism is never the answer. I mean look at how Capitalism is destroying the video gaming industry movie industry well i could give out many examples.

The normal standard of living has increased in western countries and in North America to.
Cost of Living

In many Western Capitalist countries the cost of living is very very expensive, including rent. Are you saying that those countries are better off with their expensive costs to the ordinary people common folks?

And just what have the right wingers had accomplished to change the living costs in Europe? look at May in Britain what has she accomplished?

a reply to: Propagandalf
You cant be serious.
You must be joking. Your getting your facts very wrong.

It's why extreme poverty throughout the world is rapidly declining

Poverty Around The World
Source

Source

Europe and Central Asia

Many countries in the region suffered setbacks in the growth of incomes of its bottom 40. On the other hand, several economies whose bottom 40 suffered large declines because of the financial and the debt crises were recovering. Among developing regions, Europe and Central Asia had the lowest percentage of people living under the $3.20 and $5.50 poverty lines. However, in the share of people lacking schooling enrollment, it performs less well than either East Asia and Pacific or Latin America and the Caribbean. 

I am not sure where you get the stats where you claim that extreme poverty throughout the world is rapidly declining when the reality on the ground is completely different.

originally posted by: AtlasHawk
a reply to: Propagandalf
You cant be serious.
You must be joking. Your getting your facts very wrong.

It's why extreme poverty throughout the world is rapidly declining

Poverty Around The World
Source

Source

Europe and Central Asia

Many countries in the region suffered setbacks in the growth of incomes of its bottom 40. On the other hand, several economies whose bottom 40 suffered large declines because of the financial and the debt crises were recovering. Among developing regions, Europe and Central Asia had the lowest percentage of people living under the $3.20 and $5.50 poverty lines. However, in the share of people lacking schooling enrollment, it performs less well than either East Asia and Pacific or Latin America and the Caribbean. 

I am not sure where you get the stats where you claim that extreme poverty throughout the world is rapidly declining when the reality on the ground is completely different.

The stats are global. They do not hinge on just Europe and Central Asia.
Certain people cannot see the forest because of all the trees.

Rut roh, hopefully we don't have to introduce them to freedom.

originally posted by: Lysergic
Rut roh, hopefully we don't have to introduce them to freedom.

originally posted by: AtlasHawk


Yeah like how great Libya, Iraq were? the people there still don't have "FREEDOM"

Yeah, I'm all for letting them decide their own fates.

originally posted by: pexx421

I’m rhetorically asking because I doubt the “facts”. People post “facts” on here all day to show the economy is doing great. Naturally it’s all bs. I saw the same “facts” in 07. There is a greater wage gap than at any time in history, and it’s growing. That’s a fact. The eu is collapsing and Britain almost fell apart this week. That’s a fact. The us economy is in a shambles with politicians doing the opposite of what they promise, and corporations making the rules and pulling the strings. That’s a fact. You think “state capitalism” is the same as “socialism “. That’s a fact. I’m sure you will have different “facts” than mine. Naturally, yours are incorrect.

I'm saying what I said is not a debate, you can research and find out. I was providing information to give you an idea which way to go. What I showed you many organization use that such as the world bank. The hard part is to think outside of the box we are in as to what we think is how humans live around the world. Everything you wrote above is not what I'm talking about...

a reply to: Xtrozero

And I’m saying you’re wrong. It is debatable just like all facts and statistics. And I don’t need your directions on which way to go, but thanks for offering. We were talking about capitalism, and in the last 4 weeks I’ve probably spent almost 100 hours reading and listening to yanous varoufakis, Michael Hudson, and Richard Wolff. I’ve also read dozens of books by Chomsky, Howard zinn, William Blum, and others. Have to say, they have much more compelling data and explanations of capitalism, socialism, economics and the state of the world than an ats blogger and the world bank/ ptb.

a reply to: pexx421
The thing about statistics is that those putting out the stats are often manipulating the stats or presentation in order to paint an agenda or narrative. Of course the world bank paints a rosy picture. They want to make it look like their work is helping the poor of the world. In reality, their actual job is to loan impossible terms to poor nations so that they may go in, privatize everything and steal the natural resources for multinational investors/thieves.

a reply to: Propagandalf

so... your argument is

"the United Socialist Party of Venezuela " means they are socialists just because they have the word "socialist" in the "name"

but,


The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is also socialists even though they have the word "Democratic"


so, your argument is a contradiction...

originally posted by: XAnarchistX
a reply to: Propagandalf

so... your argument is

"the United Socialist Party of Venezuela " means they are socialists just because they have the word "socialist" in the "name"

but,


The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is also socialists even though they have the word "Democratic"


so, your argument is a contradiction...

My argument was that Venezuela was a socialist country, led by a socialist party, in another failed attempt at socialism. You brought up North Korea, another failed attempt at socialism.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: Xtrozero

And I’m saying you’re wrong. It is debatable just like all facts and statistics. And I don’t need your directions on which way to go, but thanks for offering. We were talking about capitalism, and in the last 4 weeks I’ve probably spent almost 100 hours reading and listening to yanous varoufakis, Michael Hudson, and Richard Wolff. I’ve also read dozens of books by Chomsky, Howard zinn, William Blum, and others. Have to say, they have much more compelling data and explanations of capitalism, socialism, economics and the state of the world than an ats blogger and the world bank/ ptb.

A good book to read if you are that type of person is "Factfulness" It explains using real statistical analysis how much of the world is really like. You are not alone in thinking we are worst off today than 10 years ago, and 10 years ago we are worst off than 10 years before that so on and so on. Most of our level 4 world thinks like that, but is that really the reality of the world?

When you look at child deaths per 1000 and in many countries back in 1965 there was 200 300 deaths per 1000 and those same countries today ALL are better by huge percentages with some actually in the teens per 1000. This is a basic measurement of many that life in those country are better today than back then.

20 years ago 500 million Chinese were extreme poverty level 1, today that number is well under 1%, same with India that 30% of the country 20 years ago was extreme poverty and today it is 9%. We can go across most of the world outside of a few outliners such as Central Africa, Sudan, Afghanistan, long term war areas and see the same as ALL have had vast improvements that today equals to only 9% of the world now lives in extreme poverty.

We should be having parties, cheering such an achievement that extreme poverty could be eructated world wide within our life time, but we don't and talk about pay gaps, rich getting richer, I make less today than 5 years ago etc etc. Life is different when you are born into level 4 and stay there your whole life. At that level you are complaining that your house is not big enough, you drive an older car, you can only eat out once a week etc etc...

One interesting thing is Gates, Buffet a few other mega rich actually want to do just that and move the whole world into level 3/4. Not everyone at the top are the evil rich.

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: pexx421
The thing about statistics is that those putting out the stats are often manipulating the stats or presentation in order to paint an agenda or narrative. Of course the world bank paints a rosy picture. They want to make it look like their work is helping the poor of the world. In reality, their actual job is to loan impossible terms to poor nations so that they may go in, privatize everything and steal the natural resources for multinational investors/thieves.

You can say all statistics are manipulated to create a narrative, but when you look at real raw statistics there is no narrative...you create your own narrative based on true facts...

If in your town there were 100 murders per year 10 years ago and every year there was 5 less to having only 50 murders today you can say that crime in this case has improved over the course of those 10 years. The numbers have no narrative, you make the narrative looking at the numbers.

Gap analyst of the pay gap is a sticky wicket,. You can say the rich are getting richer and I would say what is your point? I used the example that you saved zero last year and I saved 10,000, so I saved 10,000 times more than you. The 10,000 times is the narrative, where the actual 10,000 is not much at all. I also suggested taking 10 trillion from the rich per year to give everyone 3 more dollars per day, so once again when someone says the rich get richer what does that mean to us all? They have about 100 trillion total and if we took it all from them and passed it around we would give everyone 40 bucks per day for 1 year... Once again I'm not creating a narrative just showing numbers... And I'm also not suggesting as you think that because the rich are richer the rest of the world is poorer because of that.

The rich are always richer....just as I can say I saved 10,000 times more than you did last year....

a reply to: Propagandalf

State-socialism

a reply to: Xtrozero

But see, you are wrong. When people produce a product and sell that product, it’s generally an even exchange of value, more or less. But the rich that are getting richer in our world are not value producers. And this is the problem with most of your stats that are produced by Chicago school economists. They don’t take into account banks, debt, or money. The bankers and folks that we speak of in the “rich getting richer “ group are financialists, not industrialists. They don’t produce things that add value, the opposite actually, they extract more through raising interest rates, raising rent, capital gains, monopolies etc. So the reality that you fail to realize is that, yes, they do get richer by taking away more from the poor and working class. These are extractive industries and giants who acquire money through unearned income. I expect you will take issue with whether they “earned it” or not because you don’t understand the difference between earned income and unearned income, and negative economics vs positive economics. So, what the banking and financial class do is find ways to accumulate all the surplus income created by others for themselves. I’m sure you’re indoctrinated enough to disagree, but I suggest listening to a talk or two by micheal Hudson, and then come tell me if he’s wrong or not.

a reply to: Propagandalf
Saying Venezuela is an example of failed socialism is like saying Vietnam was a failed example of democracy. Originally Ho Chi Minh wanted to base their constitution and Declaration of Independence off of ours. Then we let France attack them, and followed by attacking ourselves, and Vietnam’s fledgling freedom and democracy was crushed. Similarly, the us likes to foment coups, bribe Venezuela’s oligarchs, control the media narrative, attempt assassination, perform economic sabotage and sanctions, than sit back, look at the nation they’ve destroyed, and point out how socialism failed.

originally posted by: pexx421 I’m sure you’re indoctrinated enough to disagree, but I suggest listening to a talk or two by micheal Hudson, and then come tell me if he’s wrong or not.

I'm not as indoctrinated as you might think. I do understand that debt is the key to why the rich get richer etc, but we are also a consumer society that also drives debt and makes the rich richer. I'm one of those consumers... Big house, 4 cars, 2 or 3 vacations per year and everything else that goes a long those lines, but I could live on 10% of what I feel I need being a big consumer.

I also see that a finance economy is not good...this is what you are suggesting is the reason for cost going up faster than wages can keep up and I agree. It is also a problem of the level 4 world... I'm not saying the world is all rosy as the real estate market and financial sector does not produce goods or services, so it is actually bad, so we can agree there.