Apparently the upgraded J-20 is superior to the F-35...

According to Chinese military observers.

As South Korea became the latest country to buy and deploy US F-35 stealth fighter jets, Chinese military observers asserted that an upgraded Chinese J-20 fighter will gain overwhelming superiority over the F-35 in future and that China can fend off all potential threats from what media dubs the “US F-35 friends circle” in the Asia-Pacific region.

Of course, one would expect them to say such things...

But, could they be right??

Now, most of you know that my expertise in aircraft, and aircraft design is limited to "oooh, that's cool" , or words to that effect...

But amongst the reading I've done on the subject is that both aircraft will be, eventually, very much on par with the other, the F-35 is the superior aircraft at the moment, with the J-20 upgrades, mostly in the area of engines is my understanding, in the future making it much closer in capabilities. Each will pose a significant threat to the other should combat ever occur.

Since the J-20 isn't, at the moment, intended for foreign sales, it seems unlikely that the two will encounter each other--it bears repeating, at the moment...

Some experts have said the Chinese still have not quite reached the level of stealth sophistication that the west has. The J-20 has, by many accounts, the front radar cross section that matches the F-117--so it's equiv. of first generation stealth. From the sides, especially the rear, the radar cross section is much worse.

From what I'm reading, at the moment, the F-35 is the superior platform, with improvements at a later time, bringing the J-20 to a level of parity, or at worst, near parity.

What is beyond question, at least to my mind, is the very present danger the J-20 would present to AWACS, and assorted aircraft of that sort. Including, air to air refueling assets.

I stand ready to be educated.

I know nothing about the subject but I am hoping a aircraft that is made by Lockheed is not the very best that we have... I always hope that we are saving the really cool stuff for later and keep it out the lime light so that nobody (China) can steal it. That being said, we are stuck with it for a couple decades , right?

a reply to: seagull

I read this article a few days ago and would include a paragraph, but I'm in a bit of a rush. link

Gist of it is our networks will dominate them even if their equipment has an upper hand.

I am the furthest thing from and expert though, this is a zaphod topic.

originally posted by: seagull
Of course, one would expect them to say such things...

Start with the engines, and go from there. Is the Xian WS-15 better than the PW F135? I am no engine expert, but I doubt it. Then go on to sensors.

While we should not down-play China's rise, off the back of rather a lot of technology theft, there's a sense check needed when considering what the controlled Chinese issues forth.

a reply to: paraphi

Absolutely it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

It looks, the J-20, like a platform that could eventually match what the F-35 already is. That article seems to presume that the F-35 will remain static, and not have upgrades through out its service life...

originally posted by: seagull
It looks, the J-20, like a platform that could eventually match what the F-35 already is.

I am no expert in stealth shapes, and all that, but I have read several times that those massive FO canards on the J-20 compromise stealth significantly.

a reply to: paraphi

I seem to recall reading that myself. That particular article that I linked doesn't mention that. Nor did another article that quoted a retired USAF general who worked on the F-35 project. I'll try to find that article later, when I have a bit more time...no idea where I read it.

In it, as I recall, no mention was made of the effect, if any, those forward canards may have on radar cross section...just that the J-20 seemed to be in the same ballpark as the F-117 in regards to radar cross section.

I lack anything like the expertise necessary to make an informed judgement. On the surface, I don't see how it, the canards, can't have a negative impact on radar cross section.

a reply to: seagull

Yeah, that's pure propaganda. The J-20 is a really good first attempt at stealth, and will be a serious threat to our support aircraft, but it won't ever be in the same class as an F-35 or F-22, no matter how many upgrades it gets. You can improve the signature somewhat, by applying new RAM coatings, but it's always going to be somewhere between an F-117 and B-2 in terms of signature. That puts it somewhere in the 0.003 m2 to 0.0001 m2 range, for frontal aspect. That will increase from other angles.

It uses some of the technologies that the F-35 uses, such as what appears to be EO sensors around the aircraft, and reportedly LPI radar, but that doesn't put it anywhere near the F-35 in terms of data collection. The F-35 is right at the limit of what a pilot can deal with in terms of sensor data and processing. That's a hard thing to match on your first try. It's taken us a long time to get to this point, and many attempts to get it right.

While I'm sure the J-20 will be a formidable aircraft it will likely not compare favorably to the F-35 and F-22A, The F-22A's ECM suite alone would be hard to match and Chinese missile technology is behind both US and Russian missile tech IIRC.

Also in it's current configuration the RCS is still going to be fairly large with the Sukhoi engine sticking out, Canards and the wing, It just doesn't seem like it's configured for maximum stealth.

Also isn't comparing a J-20 to F-35 apples to oranges? The J-20 seems more comparable in role to the F-22 as a superiority fighter rather than a light fighter/attack aircraft that the F-35 seems to be, Why didn't they designate the F-35 as F/A-35 anyway?

If I was China I would've just made a rough copy of the YF-23 lol but that's just me haha!

a reply to: GrOuNd_ZeRo

You're absolutely right about apples to oranges. But the F-35 is in the news so that's what they'll compare it to.

Speaking of ECM, the F-35's suite is supposed to be even better than the F-22's by a wide margin. Not to mention it's passive ESW capabilities.

Kinematically, the J-20 will be superior to the F-35 in supersonic maneuverability particularly if they get the engines sorted. Rafale, Eurofighter, Su-57, J-20 have all emphasized that requirement while it didn't rank high on the F-35 wish list. I would assume it would also have better range.

I don't think it matters a whole lot because you aren't going to see many 1v1 or even 2v2 engagements if the balloon goes up. We have a lot more experience with VLO design and tactics, and better sensors and coordination. They'll have numbers and a practicality with political will that doesn't worry much about optics that the West will never match.

If China obtains "overwhelming superiority" it'll be because of a superiority in numbers of aircraft, intertheatre missiles, and the difficulty in operating from bases far enough away to stay open. They also potentially pose a threat to all our nifty "force multiplier" platforms, as you noted.

Its Chinese lies. The f35 is in a level chinas j20 cant hope to achieve unless it was redesigned from the ground up. Its more than just the f35s superior sensor suite. Its how it intends to use its sensor suite.

Total amateur here who loves to discuss this stuff. Forgive me if I state the obvious and please correct me if I’m wrong.

Anyway, from what I’ve read, it seems fighter maneuverability is less important now — as it’s always been — than detecting the other guy first and getting off the first shot, with superior AAMs. The Elbit-Rockwell Collins Helmet-Mounted Display System and the ability to see through the airframe must be incredible advantages in this regard. The F-35’s data fusion capability also takes much of the workload off the pilot and allows him or her to make quicker decisions in a fight, or so I’ve read. And then there’s the F-35’s connectivity with other platforms; how will the Chinese or Russians deal with stealth fighters using targeting data from other sources to take its shots? Imagine knowing your opponent might be lurking unseen, watching you and maneuvering (or not) for a shot. Like being on the ground with a sniper out there who could blow your head off any moment. Nerve wracking!

Manned fighters have a hard time pulling even a fifth of the 50 Gs a Sidewinder AIM-9X can do, and they certainly can’t do it for long. The latest version’s extended range almost puts it in the BVR category. When you consider its ability to reliably hit targets closing head-on, from extreme off-boresight angles and even over the shoulder, I just don’t see how fighter maneuverability can be as important as it was. Not that other AAMs can’t do the same tricks, but if I can fire mine first, without even having to lock-on first, I like my chances.

Then there’s the AMRAAM, which can fly to a designated spot using GPS-enhanced IMU before turning on its radar. It may not have the longest range of all the AAMs, but it certainly has a respectable BVR, perhaps 100 miles in the latest version. I think it can pull about 30 Gs. When its range and relative stealth is combined with a stealthy firing platform using targeting info from other sources, such as AWACS or other fighters, etc., it’s gotta be a huge advantage.

I’m not saying fighter maneuverability doesn’t matter at all, I’m just saying it’s less important now. I think the Europeans, Russians and Chinese tout their maneuverability because that’s their main advantage over the F-35, at least the F-35B and C variants. And I’m not so sure they’ll have significantly more maneuverability than the latest versions of the F-35A, with its flight control software upgrades. The USAF F-35A demo team has shown some impressive abilities at air shows lately.

One more thought: You’d better have damn good countermeasures in aerial combat with a peer adversary. I have no idea how the F-35’s CMs compare to the J-20s, but I suspect they’re better. BAE makes the AN/ASQ-239 electronic warfare suite for the F-35, and a new chaff cartridge will be added in 2020.