Obamacare Thrown Out by Judge (Unconstitutional), Raising Insurance Uncertainty

a reply to: Extorris

Your own link disproves that Republicans had anything meaningful to do with the process:

Jost said by September 2009 that period was over and from then on, the bill was strictly a Democratic piece of legislation.

It’s worth noting that many facets of the Republican’s health care agenda at the time made it into the Affordable Care Act. The Affordable Care Act was a private market plan, and it dropped a long-held Democratic priority to include a public option.

In the end, no Senate or House Republicans voted for the Affordable Care Act in its final version.

The Democrats at the time got no Republican support for including any suggestions into the ACA. They could have just as easily passed it with no Republican input. If anything made it in suggested by Republicans, it was because the Democrats agreed with it, not because the Republicans demanded it to get their vote.

Obamacare belongs to Obama and the Democrats, 100%.

As to the polls, who cares? Since when is constitutionality based on polling results?

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

Again, Obamacare was 100 manufactured by Democrats with initial design input from GOP when there was still hope of a bipartisan bill.
The GOP have owned Obamacare for better or worse for the past two years. To somehow claim that Democrats have been secretly running government for the past two years during Unilateral Rule by the GOP is silly. To claim that the GOP has not loudly celebrated all the damage they have done to Obamacare is reality denial.

The GOP are 100% responsible for the state of the countries healthcare right now. If they make it worse by eliminating ACA, they plainly own that. The last court ruling overturned pre-existing conditions protections, kids on your plan until 26..all of it. The GOP got what they wanted. The public is not stupid.

originally posted by: Extorris
a reply to: TheRedneck

Again, Obamacare was 100 manufactured by Democrats with initial design input from GOP when there was still hope of a bipartisan bill.
The GOP have owned Obamacare for better or worse for the past two years. To somehow claim that Democrats have been secretly running government for the past two years during Unilateral Rule by the GOP is silly. To claim that the GOP has not loudly celebrated all the damage they have done to Obamacare is reality denial.

The GOP are 100% responsible for the state of the countries healthcare right now. If they make it worse by eliminating ACA, they plainly own that. The last court ruling overturned pre-existing conditions protections, kids on your plan until 26..all of it. The GOP got what they wanted. The public is not stupid.

According to you polls you love citing the majority of the polled public are morons:

Voters believe Democrats can better handle health care issues by a 15-point margin.

64 percent of Americans want the government to take steps to help more people get covered.

A majority of Americans believe the Affordable Care Act is “about right” or “didn’t go far enough.

None of those opinions are correct because the government has no place in meddling with private healthcare.

a reply to: Extorris

Ok, so because the GOP failed to repeal obamacare, they now own it? LMAO

This is ridiculous "logic" you've got going on here.

Dems own obamacare. Now you can claim republicans own the removal of it (because afterall, they repealed the tax which led to the demise of obamacare) but in another four years that will be seen as majorly positive as long as this ruling stands.

Obamacare was the most unpopular piece of legislation I've seen in my lifetime, for 6+ years. Then, all of the sudden, when dems lost the house, senate, and presidency (with the GOP running hard against obamacare) it became popular?? Something doesn't make much sense here. The only way this makes any sense is to say americans simply wanted the status quo, no change.

This chart shows me that polls are blatantly manipulated for public consumption. What else explains people voting for a party who makes their central promise to rid you of obamacare, then, literally the week after they get enough levers to get rid of it suddenly the voters don't want it done?

a reply to: Extorris

Again, Obamacare was 100 manufactured by Democrats with initial design input from GOP when there was still hope of a bipartisan bill.
The GOP have owned Obamacare for better or worse for the past two years. To somehow claim that Democrats have been secretly running government for the past two years during Unilateral Rule by the GOP is silly.

Laws do not magically disappear when a Congress is replaced. They remain in effect until repealed or ruled unconstitutional. The GOP did not create Obamacare; the GOP did not endorse Obamacare; the GOP did not vote for Obamacare. Therefore they do not 'own' Obamacare, regardless of who is/was/will be 'in power.' In reality, the GOP majority in the Senate has been razor thin, so the ability of the GOP to affect Obamacare was severely limited. The Senate requires 60 votes for cloture. Thus Shumer's ability to shut down the government earlier despite the GOP majority.

According to your theory, the DNC was for years responsible for Reagan's 'trickle-down economics.' In reality they were not, of course.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: Extorris

Ok, so because the GOP failed to repeal obamacare, they now own it? LMAO

This is ridiculous "logic" you've got going on here.

No. It is accountability.

The promise was not "Repeal". It was "Repeal and Replace" with something better and they have failed all of their promises.
The voting public is not stupid.

Despite this unprecedented trifecta of conservative power in government.
They failed to REPEAL.
They couldn't even come up for an idea to REPLACE.
But they did find time to stab a dozen holes in the only lifeboat many Americans have??

President Trump has constantly promised he would retain pre-existing conditions protections and allow children under the age of 26 to remain on their parents insurance polices. This ruling just eliminated both of those things and the GOP failed to even come up with a plan to vote on despite majorities in all branches of government for two years.
That is just factual.

Maybe I am just an old fashioned conservative? The party of responsibility and accountability?

Yes. The GOP have earned their ownership of the current state of healthcare in this country.

They asked for power under the promise of "better" and the public gave it to them under that agreement. They are delivering "worse" and have failed to propose alternatives.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

You're arguing from a this position that more people with insurance paying more money inherently means improved services.

No. I'm arguing that the ACA placed certain requirements on insurance carriers which did not exist prior to the ACA. Foremost, probably, being that pre-existing conditions cannot be considered in providing coverage or in determining premiums.

Some people seem to think those conditions are perfectly reasonable and that someone who has had cancer (that would be me) can be denied coverage or else be priced out of the market. Sounds fair. Right?

I'm so sick of this "pre-existing" crap. MSM, and chicken Littles blow it up, like it was such a tragic issue in the U. S., that 200 million people must now go broke to pay for all these "pre-existing" conditions that supposedly everyone was dying from.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Extorris

In reality, the GOP majority in the Senate has been razor thin, so the ability of the GOP to affect Obamacare was severely limited. The Senate requires 60 votes for cloture.

They only needed 51 votes for their last attempt at repeal.
They had 53 GOP in the Senate including the Vice President to break a tie.
They failed to even bring a replacement proposal to the floor for consideration despite having almost 10 years to conceive of a better plan.
They failed to protect pre-existing conditions as promised.
They failed to repeal despite having the political Majority necessary to do so.

This isn't even a discussion about politics. It is a discussion about taking responsibility.

The GOP asked for power under certain promises and were granted an amazing amount of power across all of government and then failed to deliver what they promised, not just in some ways, but in all ways they promised with regards to healthcare.

originally posted by: SourGrapes

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

You're arguing from a this position that more people with insurance paying more money inherently means improved services.

No. I'm arguing that the ACA placed certain requirements on insurance carriers which did not exist prior to the ACA. Foremost, probably, being that pre-existing conditions cannot be considered in providing coverage or in determining premiums.

Some people seem to think those conditions are perfectly reasonable and that someone who has had cancer (that would be me) can be denied coverage or else be priced out of the market. Sounds fair. Right?

I'm so sick of this "pre-existing" crap. MSM, and chicken Littles blow it up, like it was such a tragic issue in the U. S., that 200 million people must now go broke to pay for all these "pre-existing" conditions that supposedly everyone was dying from.

That seems a strange thing to say.

Absent accidents and homicide, virtually everyone will die from a "pre-existing condition".

From a more practical economic perspective, the ability for insurers to deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions suppressed wages. Many employees accepted lower wages than what the market would otherwise bare out of fear of losing insurance by their employer and not being able to get re-insured. It was a significant barrier to labor mobility. It also suppressed innovation and entrepreneurship as people could not strike out on their own and get coverage.

Pre-existing conditions did not just include major diseases. Pregnancy was a pre-existing condition. A woman who gave birth was not insurable for at least 12-24 months after the child was born. Back aches were considered pre-existing conditions. You might get insured, but if you required surgery your insurer could deny payment based on any doctor visit prior to the insurance being issued where you complained of pain. The list is long.

from 2007-2009, those denied coverage for pre-existing conditions increased by 49 percent.

healthnetwork.com...


www.cms.gov...

I appreciate that many here on this thread disagree, but in my opinion these actions by the GOP will have severe political consequences in the next 2 years at a time where the GOP can not afford to lose more voters.

Many, many Republicans took President Trump and the GOP at their word when they promised "Repeal and REPLACE" with something better and the Pre-Existing Conditions would be protected.

I might be wrong in that assessment, but it seems very clear to me.

I guess we will find out.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Extorris


According to your theory, the DNC was for years responsible for Reagan's 'trickle-down economics.' In reality they were not, of course.

TheRedneck

President Reagan was succeeded by President Bush, then President Clinton.
Under President Clinton the Democrats had majorities in both houses from Jan 1993-Jan 1995.
Absolutely yes, President Clinton and the Democrats were entirely responsible for the economic state of the country at that time.
Why would anyone suggest otherwise?
Reagan dropped the top nth income tax on the 1% from 50% to 28%. Clinton brought it up to 40%.
I don't know what you are suggesting.

a reply to: TheRedneck

This is not a subtle statistic.

September 2018

The Morning Consult/Politico poll finds that 81 percent of voters, including 80 percent of Republicans, say insurers should be barred from denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions, which was a provision in ObamaCare.

66 percent of Republicans, said insurers should be banned from charging more to people with pre-existing conditions,

thehill.com...

This court ruling that the GOP is celebrating eliminates both of those provisions while at the same time the GOP has not even proposed an alternate solution, let alone introduced an alternative for consideration in congress.

If you are wondering how the average Republican voter will respond, read the above poll numbers again.

I find the denial on this thread odd. I am not making a partisan argument when I highlight political consequences.

The promise was simultaneous repeal and replace with something better.

You do not stab holes in a life boat full of Millions of Americans and then tell them to tread water while you build a new boat that you don't even have plans for yet.

a reply to: Extorris

What I am suggesting is that a new Congress does not change the country overnight. Laws are persistent entities that continue even after they are implemented. Even worse, a bad law like Obamacare will have long-lasting effects that will actually outlive rescission of the law that caused them.

It would be wonderful if we could wave a magic wand and suddenly everything would go back to pre-ACA conditions just by removing Obamacare, but sadly that is not reality. Reality is that we must now figure out a way to 'fix' the crisis based on the changes Obamacare made. That's much harder than passing Obamacare was. So the legacy of Obamacare continues to this day, and likely will continue for many more years in the form of higher insurance premiums, higher deductibles, higher heathcare costs, and less options for recovery. Every bit of that is on those who initially passed Obamacare, and no one else. It will always be the fault of those who passed Obamacare and no one else.

The Republicans get the blame for not fixing it after claiming they could. I'll agree with that. But trying to put the blame for Obamacare on the Republicans is like trying to sue the body shop for wrecking your car because they are taking too long to fix it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Extorris

You do not stab holes in a life boat full of Millions of Americans and then tell them to tread water while you build a new boat that you don't even have plans for yet.

I don't know about that... Obamacare did a pretty good job of it.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck

The Republicans get the blame for not fixing it after claiming they could. I'll agree with that. But trying to put the blame for Obamacare on the Republicans is like trying to sue the body shop for wrecking your car because they are taking too long to fix it.

TheRedneck

Then we agree.
Democrats own the the sate of healthcare 2010-2016.
Republicans own the state of healthcare 2017 to present.
That is accountability and responsibility.
It is a fair trade when we cote people into office and grant them power. The GOP was granted majorities across all branches of government and failed to even propose a viable replacement as they promised.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Extorris

You do not stab holes in a life boat full of Millions of Americans and then tell them to tread water while you build a new boat that you don't even have plans for yet.

I don't know about that... Obamacare did a pretty good job of it.

TheRedneck

Obamacare moved millions of Americans from a quickly sinking boat to leaky life boat. The GOP then refused to repair any of the leaks.

Tired of waiting for the lifeboat to sink, Republicans stabbed holes in that lifeboat and is now asking everyone to tread water until they can go build a better boat and return some day.

Again, if they simply showed up with a better boat, debate over, Obamacare could sink with no one caring.

This ruling invalidated the entire Obamacare law.

If the ruling stands a lot of bad things will happen quickly without any alternative in place.

The WH has been using Obamacare to get most of it's healthcare agenda done.

Why Trump still needs Obamacare
To bring down drug prices and fight opioids, the White House uses provisions of the health law it constantly attacks.
www.politico.com...

a reply to: Extorris

Then we agree.
Democrats own the the sate of healthcare 2010-2016.
Republicans own the state of healthcare 2017 to present.

No, sorry, we do not agree. Democrats own it from the second Obamacare was passed until present. Republicans bear some responsibility for it now, but far from all. People 'own' their actions as well as the results of those actions for eternity or until someone counteracts those actions completely.

Abraham Lincoln gets credit for freeing the Southern slaves. Congress today does not get credit for that. Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Third Reich bear responsibility for the holocaust even today. Albert Einstein gets credit for the General Theory and Special Theory of Relativity... no scientist today gets to claim that because he/she is suddenly in the field.

To consolidate:

Obamacare moved millions of Americans from a quickly sinking boat to leaky life boat. The GOP then refused to repair any of the leaks.

Obama, in doing so, threw millions of other Americans out of that boat, and tossed everyone into one that was sinking much faster.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Extorris

Then we agree.
Democrats own the the sate of healthcare 2010-2016.
Republicans own the state of healthcare 2017 to present.

No, sorry, we do not agree. Democrats own it from the second Obamacare was passed until present.

So Republicans have had no effect on the law and no ability to affect the law over the past 8 years to present?
That is your position?

I am sorry to have to disagree.

I believe those elected to power have responsibility and accountability. The GOP were granted great power and made promises in exchange for that power.

I believe people should be accountable for their actions (e.g. lawsuits, defunding etc).

I believe people are accountable for failing in their promises (e.g. protect those with pre-existing conditions, conceiving a better replacement, not repealing without a replacement)

what pisses me off in this discussion: if you have reasonable critiques of ACA that lead you to think it should be repealed, you get the fallacious argument thrown at you that you must like seeing children die, etc.

The reality is that unless it is me, my family, my child dying....the alarm isn't there for me. Are there sad stories? Bet your ass their are. That is called "life". But ACA has caused a few sad stories, too. And despite my desire to see world peace, if there is a risk to some strangers child in NYC that can only be fixed by a scheme that results in my not being able to afford basic things, like my copay...i am unsure why I should be expected to care.

Im not being held hostage by accusations of heartlessness any longer. Its every bit as heartless to steal from me to pay for someone else.

Beyond that, the DNC had a chance to give us Gods gift to healthcare and blew it. Terribly. They owned all forms of governance at the time, and gave us their perfect vision of a healthcare plan. This is Obama's crowning glory. SPIT

a reply to: Extorris

So do you blame the GOP for not knowing how to fix this turd? By the time Obama left office we still hadn't sorted out how it was going to work, with many provisions kicked down the road (on purpose, because he knew it would fail).

Obama had his chance and blew it. Plain and simple. We cannot blame the GOP for not fixing that which no one knows how to fix. And look, when someone tries people wail and gnash their teeth.

LMAO

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: Extorris

So do you blame the GOP for not knowing how to fix this turd?

What needs fixing specifically?

By the time Obama left office we still hadn't sorted out how it was going to work,

By the time President Obama left office everyone understood how it worked.
ACA was an imperfect solution to healthcare system that was excluding millions of people, covering less and less claims due to pre-existing conditions and skyrocketing costs.
After implementation the GOP 100% committed themselves to blocking any fixes while simultaneously attacking the law at every opportunity and working relentlessly to repeal it.

All the while offering absolutely no alternate to the healthcare crisis Obamacare addressed.
Not one viable idea over almost a decade and still no solution or alternative.

It is simple. The GOP are welcome to completely destroy ACA as long as they come up with something better.
Repeal and replace.
Just like they promised.

We cannot blame the GOP for not fixing that which no one knows how to fix.

So you admit the GOP have absolutely no idea how to improve the healthcare system?

Destroying stuff is easy. Children do it all the time.

Solutions are what Americans were promised by the GOP.

And just because the GOP are incapable of fixing anything does not mean no one knows how to fix something.

The GOP's history on healthcare is littered with broken promises and failure to even propose solutions.

Obamacare, as imperfect as it is, has provisions that large majorities of GOP voters support for a reason.

The GOP in DC are actually panicking about this ruling because they understand the consequences of their stupidity.

The GOP should celebrate this right?

“The House was not party to this suit, and we are reviewing the ruling and its impact,” said AshLee Strong, spokeswoman for House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis.

www.apnews.com...

Cue the little boy shouting "It wasn't me" while looking afraid of what happens next.

Even Trump has used Obamacare provisions to address the opioid crisis and reign in prescription drug costs.