The Pope on Homosexuality

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

This might be tricky AM
When mummy and daddy go into their room at night, sometimes certain things happen and 9 months latter a baby comes out.
Mummy and daddy make that decision, not God
A baby grows into an adult, makes choices, free will

Do you understand freewill, doesn't seem like you do AM

Think about this AM, if a omnipotent God gave people freewill would He still be omnipotent
It's tricky and will need you to do something you are not use to doing but please give it a go

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Kharron
That would make sin intentional. If sin is intentional, can God be good?

God can be indifferent, neither good nor evil. I suppose it all comes down to what you want to believe.

But that would make the Bible wrong then, which would mean God is not omnipotent if He wrote the Bible, or rather inspired its prefect creation.


Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."


1 Timothy 4:4
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude.


Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works.


If he's good to all His works, it would mean all His creation is good, including the homosexuals. Or the Bible is wrong and it's not the word of God.

So, if homosexuality is accepted with gratitude, then it's good?

a reply to: Raggedyman


Who created free will and all its resultant consequences?

The omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe is, by definition, all knowing and all powerful. How does an all powerful and all knowing creator not know what the free will granted to its creations will produce? That's a rhetorical question since you cannot have it both ways.

originally posted by: Kharron
But that would make the Bible wrong then...

Which of course it is since it was written by a bunch of people.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Kharron
But that would make the Bible wrong then...

Which of course it is since it was written by a bunch of people.

But that is the only proof of God, for those that have faith. There is no other proof other than the perfection of His word. If His word is not perfect... then what?

I'm surprised you said it's written by a bunch of people, I agree, but I'm still surprised as that is the only fallback for religion. Without the book, there is no religion.

originally posted by: Kharron
But that is the only proof of God, for those that have faith. There is no other proof other than the perfection of His word. If His word is not perfect... then what?

I'm surprised you said it's written by a bunch of people, I agree, but I'm still surprised as that is the only fallback for religion. Without the book, there is no religion.

It's the basis for one religion, there are others that predated and came after that one.

Hail Shismar.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Raggedyman


Who created free will and all its resultant consequences?

The omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe is, by definition, all knowing and all powerful. How does an all powerful and all knowing creator not know what the free will granted to its creations will produce? That's a rhetorical question since you cannot have it both ways.

Well done you, I am almost proud, my problem is you havnt finished, just think you have to spend a little more time thinking than trying to score points
And because it's all about point scoring for you, I am not really interested in furthering your self grandioising diatribe

As I said, believe whatever you want
Or in your case what you have been told

originally posted by: Kharron

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Kharron
But that would make the Bible wrong then...

Which of course it is since it was written by a bunch of people.

But that is the only proof of God, for those that have faith. There is no other proof other than the perfection of His word. If His word is not perfect... then what?

I'm surprised you said it's written by a bunch of people, I agree, but I'm still surprised as that is the only fallback for religion. Without the book, there is no religion.

That's funny, I don't believe the book is perfect, I believe in Jesus and His perfection
Might want to revisit that assumption

originally posted by: Raggedyman
Well done you, I am almost proud, my problem is you havnt finished, just think you have to spend a little more time thinking than trying to score points

I'm flattered that you want to make me the topic, I know you're somewhat infatuated with me, however it isn't about me. I asked you some simple questions which you still avoided.

And because it's all about point scoring for you, I am not really interested in furthering your self grandioising diatribe

You said that earlier in the thread chief, but you keep coming back and engaging me. Why is that? Oh, right.

Try answering the questions.

originally posted by: Kharron

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Kharron
That would make sin intentional. If sin is intentional, can God be good?

God can be indifferent, neither good nor evil. I suppose it all comes down to what you want to believe.

But that would make the Bible wrong then, which would mean God is not omnipotent if He wrote the Bible, or rather inspired its prefect creation.


Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone."


1 Timothy 4:4
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude.


Psalm 145:9
The LORD is good to all, And His mercies are over all His works.


If he's good to all His works, it would mean all His creation is good, including the homosexuals. Or the Bible is wrong and it's not the word of God.

So, if homosexuality is accepted with gratitude, then it's good?

You have taken single sentences and applied them out of context, that's silly, that's really silly

You have taken single sentences and applied them out of context, that's silly, that's really silly

I'm sorry. So single sentences from the Bible cannot be used to justify hatred of the homosexuals then?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Kharron
But that is the only proof of God, for those that have faith. There is no other proof other than the perfection of His word. If His word is not perfect... then what?

I'm surprised you said it's written by a bunch of people, I agree, but I'm still surprised as that is the only fallback for religion. Without the book, there is no religion.

It's the basis for one religion, there are others that predated and came after that one.

Hail Shismar.

Well, it's the basis of Abrahamic religions, and they make up two thirds of the world and I would say the majority of world conflict.

But I'm in agreement with you, belief that God is omnipotent doesn't cover all religions, just the ones we're talking about.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: Raggedyman


Who created free will and all its resultant consequences?

The omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe is, by definition, all knowing and all powerful. How does an all powerful and all knowing creator not know what the free will granted to its creations will produce? That's a rhetorical question since you cannot have it both ways.

Well done you, I am almost proud, my problem is you havnt finished, just think you have to spend a little more time thinking than trying to score points
And because it's all about point scoring for you, I am not really interested in furthering your self grandioising diatribe

As I said, believe whatever you want
Or in your case what you have been told

Yeah, but he does bring up a good point in the relation between being omniscient and omnipotent. For a religious person, it should be easy to explain. This is a debate forum after all, we're here to debate.

So please, explain to me as you would an agnostic neophyte, how does an omnipotent God create a universe in which he did not anticipate sin. But then he creates hell to condemn the creation that he loves, unless they use free will to change that which is already known and predetermined, to Him? Her?

a reply to: Kharron

I am not here to debate believe what you want

You are making some very interesting assumptions in your premise
Does God have freewill, does God allow freewill, can God choose to allow people's lives to run their own course, step back, still be omnipotent, just not direct hands on

Apart from that, I have never said I understand God, go ask a Calvinist, they know everything
Or Augustus masonicus, he seems to know everything as well

Just don't assume because someone has a gun they use it to kill people

Hell wasn't created for humanity, hell is a choice not to be with God.

You want an answer on an Internet forum post? I can't do that, I can't be bothered, I really don't think you care, there are so many questions and so many answers, they are not all the same

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Kharron

I am not here to debate believe what you want

Ok then, have a good night.

Hell wasn't created for humanity, hell is a choice not to be with God.

So if I don't believe in God, I'm already in hell?

I mean, it's not up to Biblical standards or anything, in fact -- it's really not that bad. The graphics are awesome.

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: DpatC

NO, his being gay is a mental disease caused by the church abusing him. Conduct a study and find out how many gays WEREN'T abused and get back to me....

I've done my own and every single gay I interviewed had been abused. It is a coping mechanism to deal with the wrongness of it. They need to normalize it in their minds so they end up becoming gay to adjust and normalize the wrong behavior that they were forced into.

Yes, I do have a psychology degree and no, it is not a published study; it was simply for my own edification.

Jaden

Cool, stay on topic.

The Pope is changing things in the Catholic Church for the same reasons the Boy Scouts dropped boy, inclusion.

That's all this is, nothing more.

a reply to: Kharron

Like it or not, I believe Gods presence is in this world, hell is when He withdraws His presence and there is no Gods presence.

Hell is existence with no love, compassion, mercy or relationship.

But believe what you like I won't debate this

Problem is K' seems like you just want to self grandiose and score points as well

You know what the law in the book of Satan is, it's "please yourself"

Enjoy the graphics, I am not interested in your games
If I wanted to play with children, there is ak, noindie or AM

a reply to: Kharron

Basically, the Pope is saying he's gay so it's okay.

Kind of a shock when you consider the amount of gay priest abuses and pedophiles.

But, if it makes the gays like Catholicism better and feel less guilt......

originally posted by: Justso
a reply to: Kharron

Basically, the Pope is saying he's gay so it's okay.

Kind of a shock when you consider the amount of gay priest abuses and pediphiles.

But, if it makes the gays like Catholicism better and feel less guilt......

A pediphile? Is that like a pedophile but they focus on the feet?

Ahhhhh, I know, I know, I'm terrible to be joking about it!

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: Kharron
Like it or not, I believe Gods presence is in this world, hell is when He withdraws His presence and there is no Gods presence.

Hell is existence with no love, compassion, mercy or relationship.

But believe what you like I won't debate this

Your faith was never a topic of debate, we were only debating the logic behind religion and the fallacy of the texts, or the verity.

And thanks, that explanation makes sense to me. So, hell would be like an Earth that God, as omniscient would still be able to observe over, but would not interact with or have His presence in? And even though I don't believe in Him, He is still here, and when He is gone, hell will be the realization that He exists and He is not with me. I can imagine this.

Enjoy the graphics, I am not interested in your games

Oh, I do. The game-play sucks, it's pretty choppy sometimes, and there's rollbacks and I have to do things over, it sucks. But the story is pretty good. Hope it ends well. Hope the protagonist dies happy... and in bed... with Cindy Crawford.