Police Threaten Arrest If Citizens Speak Out Against the State-Sanctioned Death of Baby Alfie Evans

a reply to: Grambler

And what did you just say was so true on the last page

You made out like I had said that, I didn't, I quoted another poster, and I just agreed with most of it.

The fake moral outrage is sickening tbh.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan


I don't think anyone is happy about this situation, or how it all worked out.

originally posted by: testingtesting
The fake moral outrage is sickening tbh.

I hope you ar not aldo second guessing motives.

That act is a logical fallacy and ruins any other points you may wish to make

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Basically the judge is saying that Italy's healthcare system keeping a child alive in such circumstances is wrong.

Isn't it ?
The damage has been done , we can't reverse brain damage so Alfie was never going to live a life he was always going to be hooked up to a machine and existing in a coma , I'm all parental choice but the decisions taken were taken in the child's best interests , of that I have no doubt.

a reply to: Kurokage

Italy offered EU approved and legal care which was denied over a subjective opinion of ethics.
It boils down to UK medics = ethical, Italian medics = unethical.
A legal alternative of care was offered by an EU nation but the decision of the judge supercedes the opinion of Italian doctors.

Everyone who supports the denial of care in Italy is effectively saying that the way Italy's healthcare system treats kids in a similar position is wrong and unethical. We could argue that all day, but that is what it boils down to me.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

We habe no stake in your politics. This ismt a political outcry. Its moral.

It's some American groups saying "storm the hospital" and "an AR15 would sort this out", it's also certain people not understanding poor Alfies health problems, and what effect this had on him, and some right wing American groups calling British doctors murders and our idea of healthcare wrong!! Why, because it's different to how America does it!!

Why throw "right wing" into this hodge podge?

Random strangers have opinions. But AR 15's are not political.

Id challenge that the morons in charhe of alfies care didmt know much more than the average American. They swore he would die within minutes (under oath). When that failed they had to save face by with holding food from him until he died "naturally" of starvation.

I wasn't talking just ATS members to be fair, American and other political groups have tried to use Alfies case for political gain.

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan


I don't think anyone is happy about this situation, or how it all worked out.

Then don't defend it.

This action will likely be what keeps single payer out of the US in the foreseeable future. Its really been an eye opener for many Americans who laughed off the death panel fear stoking as absurd.

Its obviously not absurd.

a reply to: gortex

Thats quite the set of crystal balls you got there. Can you give me lotto numbers, too?

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Even in America a judge would lilely block taking a kid to a witch doctor in a third world nation.

It makes me feel a bit better to see that there are Brits not happy about this

And that's just it, the offer of care was from a fellow EU state with a legally approved and regulated healthcare system.
That alone is what sickens me.
The UK court is effectively saying Italy medics = unethical, UK medics = ethical. A subjective decision to deny an alternative which is perfectly legal in the EU.
But no, the judge said Italy is unethical in offering such care so the child must die in Britain.

originally posted by: Kurokage

originally posted by: Arnie123

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

We habe no stake in your politics. This ismt a political outcry. Its moral.

It's some American groups saying "storm the hospital" and "an AR15 would sort this out", it's also certain people not understanding poor Alfies health problems, and what effect this had on him, and some right wing American groups calling British doctors murders and our idea of healthcare wrong!! Why, because it's different to how America does it!!

false.

Did the UK PREVENT the parents from seeking additional help and advice?

No they didn't prevent them from doing this, it was the fact that all the other medical practitioners that saw Alfie agreed with his doctors out look.

Oh really? So if the parents wanted to, they could leave the country with their child and get treatment, elsewhere? Simple question.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

It boils down to UK medics = ethical, Italian medics = unethical.

It would have been if the hospital in Italy was attempting to use a dying child as a guinea pig. There was no cure, no miracle, for Alfie, he was dying, and that is what it really boils down to.

a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

They let a little boy die in a hospital bed rather than allow others to attempt to help down to bureaucratic garbage.

Their inaction is a contributing factor to that child's death.

They should be held to account and made to answer for this travesty.

The system of care is at fault, that's a given.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: ScepticScot

It confirms that in the UK, venting on social media gets the cops called on you

Venting no. Threatening people yes.

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

It boils down to UK medics = ethical, Italian medics = unethical.

It would have been if the hospital in Italy was attempting to use a dying child as a guinea pig. There was no cure, no miracle, for Alfie, he was dying, and that is what it really boils down to.

Behave, are you accusing the Italian doctors of wishing to experiment on the child now?
They offered what they offer to it's own citizens, a legal alternative of care, even if it would have been fruitless, fact is a subjective ethical decision by a judge superceded the ethical opinions of an entire nations healthcare system.
I can never support that.

As I said, if they wanted to take the child to a witch doctor in Papua New Guinea then yes, but it was an alternative EU approved option of care which was refused.

I am not 💯 on this story, what happened but from what I can decipher at first glance we have a terminally ill child and a government deciding if he lives or dies or decides to give up in trying to help him live. Then we have another government offering to help keep him alive and possibly cure him etc. then the government for the land the child lives in decides for the parents if he lives or dies or gives up ontrying to help the child... troubling, then they are threatening to throw people in jail if they protest the decision, even more troubling. Sounds a little oppressive, not sure if I would let a government decide things for my kids, especially in that position, I probably would have tried to get my kid to the Vatican win lose or draw, my kid is my responsibility not some government...

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: gortex

Thats quite the set of crystal balls you got there. Can you give me lotto numbers, too?

Are you aware of a treatment that can reverse brain damage ?
Alfie's been in a coma for over 12 months and his condition had deteriorated , if there were a hope for his recovery do you really believe that the medical staff at Alder Hey Children's Hospital would have taken the decision they did ?

The hope being offered by the Italians was intervention by God , a medical miracle , is that a reason to extend the child's suffering ?

No crystal balls needed my friend.

a reply to: andy06shake

Agreed.
I support UK doctors making the decision that 'they' wished to withdraw life support because they deemed it fruitless, but I can never support a subjective ethical opinion of a judge to deny the parents from seeking alternative care from a fellow EU member state.
That is what sickens me, Italian healthcare system = unethical, UK healthcare system = ethical...because a judge said so.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan


You have a similar set up in America. American members have posted about similar stories happening in the US.

Some people seem to think British hospitals go around killing children on a daily basis for the hell of it. We have NO death panels.

News article

a reply to: Kurokage

Perception is reality.

And the optics on this are ghoulish.