How come liberals don't want to talk about mental health in relation to school shootings?

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: kaylaluv
Loony liberal here: I’ve mentioned the mental health issue lots of times. But here’s another problem: some people who are mentally ill don’t go get help - so how do we know they’re mentally ill? I’ve proposed a psych evaluation as part of the gun background check, and I get hammered for it by the crackpot conservatives.

I agree with you there. Or linking databases for mental health.

But the really issue is early intervention for children with mental health issues. More councelors, more affordable mental health options. More money into health care. Mental health care should be affordable for everyone.

I dont think you are going to get many on board with the idea of releasing mental health records, especially of minors, to any government agency for any reason.

If mental health, with particular regard to depression, is going to be a qualifier for gun ownership then there has to be some viable way to determine the difference between a person who was once depressed due to a real life issue such a losing a loved one or a job loss leading to financial distress and people with long term depression requiring ongoing treatment. The former are transient events. Yes, the person is depressed and possibly to the point of chemical imbalance, but it will pass as it does with most people. The latter is what most people think of when they talk about depression and even then its not an issue if it is being properly managed.

The problem is that the gun control advocates will treat them equally and disqualify anyone who has ever been depressed whether the condition remains or not. Not to mention that for the transient cases the definition of depression is nebulous at best.

I was trying to look up how the Swiss handle mental health issues with youth, as they have lots of guns but no mass school shootings. It looks like they do have a real problem with suicides among youth, it’s just that their youth decide only to take their own life and not take as many kids with them as they can. Wonder why that is?

www.swissinfo.ch...

a reply to: amazing

Do you ever try and start the conversation with them instead of waiting for them to bring it up?

My friends whether liberals or conservatives have never had a problem discussing any topic that I can think of.

Maybe you need new friends.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: amazing
Come on liberals. Where's the mental health aspect? Not mental health background checks.

But anti bullying, more school councelors, early intervention to at risk youth, more mental health resources to schools, Public service announcements about mental health, Anything? I hear crickets.

Those are all first class requirements. Also anyone that brags on social media about how tough and well armed they are needs to be checked out by the authorities. Prevention is always preferable to a funeral....

you mean like this:

But to show my confidence, I gave my lady a sweet little Glock 43 for valentines day...Just a hopeless romantic I guess.

She's the tough one and very dangerous...but she doesn't need to brag about it.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

Which is why I've been saying these things really need to be two separate issues.

If we did mental health correctly, they really wouldn't need to be linked, too.

a reply to: amazing

Canadian here, yes something is off.
I agree with you on needing better policy, safety..etc, it's about all that could be done. You at least can acknowledge guns have some part in the equation..kudos to you for that, too many here flatly deny it.
I think our cultures and amounts of mental illness are pretty close(have made the point often in these threads) There is some difference in the illegal immigration, I'm not sure though that is really the problem, more of a red herring..we have a lot of immigrants as well. I would have to check stats on illegals..I still think that avenue is a red herring.
I think there is a bit more respect for guns and what damage they can do in Canada vs the U.S. for you guys it's just another day at the office..I don't mean that disrespectfully.

I didn't mean to crap on your OP

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: amazing
Come on liberals. Where's the mental health aspect? Not mental health background checks.

But anti bullying, more school councelors, early intervention to at risk youth, more mental health resources to schools, Public service announcements about mental health, Anything? I hear crickets.

Those are all first class requirements. Also anyone that brags on social media about how tough and well armed they are needs to be checked out by the authorities. Prevention is always preferable to a funeral....

you mean like this:

But to show my confidence, I gave my lady a sweet little Glock 43 for valentines day...Just a hopeless romantic I guess.

She's the tough one and very dangerous...but she doesn't need to brag about it.

Anyway this thread was more about trashing liberals than seeking solutions to a very serious problem.

and fishing for flags and stars....anti libs is alway a good tactic for baiting the hook....

a reply to: ketsuko

It shouldn’t be based on medication alone. It should be based on medication AND a diagnosis.

a reply to: vonclod

What is your rate of fatherlessness in society?

One other thing these recent school shooters had in common was a fatherless background.

mental health isn't the reason most shootings happen, only 22% of shooters have had mental health issues, many of those 22% only kill themselves and most with mental health issues in general are rarely a danger to others, most people with mental health problems are usually only a danger to themselves rather than other people. 60% of shooters were bullied by students or abused by the administration and teaching staff.

what we have is a society that abuses the weak, the poor and socially introverted and divides itself into superficial groups that are constantly at odds with each other, always bullying the outcasts to get attention from other kids to fill the empty hearts created by parents focusing on their jobs more than they focus on their family.
it creates a vicious circle where no one defends the "outcasts" or corrects the bully and even joins to fit in and be accepted by the bullies.

the students, the irresponsible school staff who refuse to discipline their students properly and even the police who keep ignoring the signs of abuse, they are at fault because a man (yes despite what modern social conditioning tells you, a teen is a man) can only take so much before survival instincts kick in, left with no choice they follow that instinct and kill the threat to their existence.

bullying and school massacres has always been a problem with america, this is nothing new and in fact school shootings have on the decline for years along with violent crime in general.

damn media and "statistic groups" need to stop lying and exaggerating the problem while ignoring the actual issues, maybe what we need is a restriction on propaganda for any organization, media or whatever, foreign or otherwise.

a reply to: amazing

The Parkland kids are all about guns...nary a mention of mental health or bullying.

You have no idea what they talk about . All you know is what the media is telling you that they are saying. They talk about a lot that never makes it on tv. Unless of course you actually have gone there and talked with them all.

Don't let the media tell you how someone you have never talked with feels.

You really thing that what you see about these kids on tv is the only thing that they are??

a reply to: amazing

And I explained to you why. Even on this thread people have said that it is a slippery slope and they are not comfortable with labeling someone with mental health issues in regards to depriving them of their second amendment rights. I'm right there with you. But Liberals/Dems DON'T control Congress. Why not ask those in power who control the purse strings? That would be the Republicans. Ask the Conservatives, not the Liberals.

a reply to: ketsuko

That might have something to do with it .
Then again I had no father and many of my friends were also raised without one but none of us have killed anyone.

I did have a friend who became a killer but he had a father. A good father to.

originally posted by: MiddleInsite
a reply to: amazing

And I explained to you why. Even on this thread people have said that it is a slippery slope and they are not comfortable with labeling someone with mental health issues in regards to depriving them of their second amendment rights. I'm right there with you. But Liberals/Dems DON'T control Congress. Why not ask those in power who control the purse strings? That would be the Republicans. Ask the Conservatives, not the Liberals.

I often make the same point. I will never understand why those who want something done don't go to the people that have the power to do it. Instead they just attack the other "team".

I guess it's just easier that way.

Liberals think people do bad things because they don't have enough education and opportunities. Conservatives think people do bad things because people are inherently bad unless they're properly disciplined.

The thing they both have in common is the notion that they are better and smarter than everybody else, and should be in charge -- of the money.

a reply to: ketsuko

Off the top of my head I don't know..I will look it up, I would be surprised if it was vastly different.
I will report back.

a reply to: amazing

Mental health.

Then there's how the "Media At Large" trains us all to be fame / popularity obsessed sociopaths.

Then there's the popularrity contest at school; the pecking order bs; and bullying.

Then there's the MSM in their methods of reporting turning shooters into celebrities.

SO you get a kid conditioned to be obsessed with being popular / famous. But they get picked n and bullied. SIck of it all. No popularity. But then they see a shooter become famous so they figure F it, I cant be popular, I'm going to get bullied instead, but I can figure out how to get a gun eventually and then I can get even with those punks at school / society in general AND become famous in the process.

I'll bet your buddies dont want to talk about any of that.

So then the MSM frames the whole issue around guns, thats all they want BOTH sides arguing about. Meaning to fall into their snare is to be their unwitting minion tool.

originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: ketsuko

That might have something to do with it .
Then again I had no father and many of my friends were also raised without one but none of us have killed anyone.

I did have a friend who became a killer but he had a father. A good father to.

I'm not saying it's the one factor that determines it, but it doesn't help at all.

Kids look at their parents to see how they should fit. They learn about how men should behave from fathers and about how women should behave from mothers.

You have boys who've been picked on and maybe didn't get the opportunity to learn the proper social cues and how to handle being ... well, men ... from a male role model and were maybe a bit unstable to begin with and you have a real problem on your hands.

a reply to: amazing

since people who think the way you like to do # like break down the inner workings and specs and linguistic history on why an ar15 is not an assault weapon and no different than a whatever the # i will go that route


mental health is a big area. what do you want to talk about
what is poor mental health? how can that be defined?
who defines it?

what mental health issues should disqualify a person?
who makes the diagnosis? just 1 doc? another to confirm? what if that doc does not?

we could also start with it is extremely difficult to get a person diagnosed for certain things.
you dont just go to the #in doc and walk out with a diagnosis about some serious #.
it takes time. it takes time just to get the appointment.

then the questions about all the people on anti depressants for example. to some its clear the meds made them snap and go off. not to others. not to me
we would need to know a million other things about their illness or lack of. other meds. diet. sleep. environment. all kinds of # to say if those meds had anything to do with it.

i will just nip the med # now though

lets say for a fact that all school shooters are because of prescription medicine.
to that i use the argument similar to 'you are so much more likely to get in a car wreck and the odds of you going through a school shooting are 8 gazillion to 1 and i took statistics and......'

how many people in the united states are on prescription meds? mental health meds?
how many of those people shoot up a school?
probably in the 1 out of every 8 gazillion range.

those medicines do so much good for so many people for so many reasons...

'not getting muh gunz cause a super small percentage of people flip out'

well

come off the mental health/prescription medicine trip for the same reason

i will say there is a problem with misdiagnosis
being improperly medicated either because of insurance bull# or the doc

there is a huge problem with just getting to see a psych.....not a fast process at all

what if you dont have insurance? good luck with that

lets start with that problem

i dont know how to go about it but i will say the entire mental health system needs an overhaul cause it really sucks.

people not medicated that should be
people medicated that should not be

getting to see the proper doc is a nightmare

some insurances will not even allow you to see a psych. you see a clinical counselor and spend your time with them. they evaluate and pass your # on the the doc. the doc diagnoses and write scripts without ever even meeting you.

that # happens.

not the best mental health care to be had......this is a major problem

originally posted by: Blue Shift
Liberals think people do bad things because they don't have enough education and opportunities. Conservatives think people do bad things because people are inherently bad unless they're properly disciplined.

You do realize that both your statements default to it all being a matter of education?

Of course, we don't think people are inherently bad, just inherently uncivilized/unsocialized. You could not raise a child in a total vacuum and expect a completely healthy, well-adjusted individual to emerge ready to be fully competent interacting with larger society and other people.

But their are different types of education.