Special counsel: Manafort, Gates worked with Russian intelligence agent

a reply to: face23785

I was referring to your response to mzinga, and agreeing with you. Sorry for the confusion.

I have been limiting the amount I quote in my threads.

Thanks for your service.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Its real simple.

]If manafort is charged for not filing in 2012 for working with ukraine, then the Podesta group he was working with should also be charged.

BS.

Where the hell did you pull 2012 out of?

Also:
The Podesta Group was a Lobbying firm Lobbying and when confronted with the failure to register cooperated and fully disclosed all transactions.

Lobbying powerhouse the Podesta Group filed paperwork with the Justice Department today acknowledging that its work years ago for a European nonprofit benefited the same Ukrainian political party once advised by Paul Manafort, who later ran Donald Trump’s presidential campaign.

www.politico.com...

Manafort hid money, relationships, took "black book" payments and engaged in a conspiracy of tax evasions and money laundering and has admitted nothing.

THAT is pretty simple.

The IRS catches an error in your favor in your tax returns for a 100K?

They first send you a bill and tell you to make it right.

Tell them to eff-off and you will get charged with tax evasion.

THAT is how Al Capone got prosecuted.

That is the way it works. Manafort and the Podesta Group are completely different animals and if you think differently you should review the actual charges.

According to the indictment, between at least 2006 and 2015, Manafort and Gates allegedly acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 2010 to 2014), Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions).

Manafort and Gates generated tens of millions of dollars in income as a result of their Ukraine work. In order to hide Ukraine payments from United States authorities, Manafort and Gates laundered the money through 32 United States and foreign corporations, partnerships, and bank accounts opened by them and their accomplices in nominee names.

They failed report millions of dollars in wire transfers from offshore accounts as income to Manafort personally; Davis Manafort Partners, Inc. (DMP), a political consultancy firm created in 2005; or DMP International, LLC (DMI), a firm created in 2011 to engage in political consulting, lobbying, and public relations in the United States for foreign clients, in particular the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions, and members of the Party of Regions.

In total, more than $75,000,000 flowed through offshore accounts. Manafort laundered more than $18,000,000, which he used to buy properties, goods, and services in the United States. He allegedly concealed that income from the United States Treasury, the Department of Justice, and others. Manafort, without reporting the income to his tax preparer or the United States, spent millions of dollars on luxury goods and services for himself and his extended family through payments wired from offshore nominee accounts to United States vendors. Manafort also used these offshore accounts to purchase multi-million dollar properties in the United States. Manafort then borrowed millions of dollars in loans using these properties as collateral, thereby obtaining cash in the United States without reporting and paying taxes on the income. In order to increase the amount of money he could access in the United States, Manafort defrauded the institutions that loaned money on these properties so that they would lend him more money at more favorable rates than he would otherwise be able to obtain.

Gates aided Manafort in obtaining money from these offshore accounts, which he was instrumental in opening. Gates also transferred more than $3,000,000 from the offshore accounts to other accounts that he controlled, to pay for his personal expenses, including his mortgage, children’s tuition, and interior decorating of his Virginia residence.

Pursuant to Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 32.2, the United States will seek forfeiture as part of any sentence in accordance with 18 U.S.C. §§ 981(a)(1)(C) and 982(a)(1) and (a)(2), and 28 U.S.C. § 2461(c), in the event of convictions under Count 2 of the Indictment (Conspiracy to Launder Money). Upon conviction, Manafort and Gates shall forfeit to the United States any property, real or personal, involved in such offense, and any property traceable to such property. Upon conviction of the offenses charged in Counts 10 and 11 (Unregistered Agent of a Foreign Principal, False and Misleading FARA Statements), Manafort and Gates shall forfeit any property, real or personal, which constitutes or is derived from proceeds traceable to the offense of conviction.

Count 1: Conspiracy Against the United States – 18 U.S.C § 371

Count 2: Conspiracy to Launder Money – 18 U.S.C § 1956 (h)

Counts 3-6: Manafort’s Failure to File Reports of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts for Calendar Years 2011-2014 – 31 U.S.C §§ 5314 and 5322(b); 18 U.S.C.

Count 10: Unregistered Agent of a Foreign Principal – 22 U.S.C. §§ 612 and 618(a)(1); 18 U.S.C. § 2

Count 11: False and Misleading FARA Statements – 22 U.S.C. § 612 and 618(a)(2); 18 U.S.C. § 2

Count 12: False Statements – 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 and 1001(a)

www.lawfareblog.com...

And HELL...THAT does not even include the recent NEW Charges.

The Podesta group did not file paperwork.

Manafort engaged in full on Money Laundering and illicit payments for some really egregious work, including financing false reports used to indict and jail the former Leader in Ukraine.

You champion half-truths, perpetually interject BS that is outright wrong/false/invented and ignore facts.

It is pointless to attempt to have a legitimate debate with you.

originally posted by: DogStarIn1066
a reply to: face23785

I was referring to your response to mzinga, and agreeing with you. Sorry for the confusion.

I have been limiting the amount I quote in my threads.

Thanks for your service.

I actually started to wonder that after I answered. I should have asked before spouting off. My apologies.

a reply to: face23785


No worries you were polite.

Thanks.

a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, 2012, where the indictment says Manafort worked with group A and B (Mercury and Podesta group) to peddle influence for Pro russian ukranian state actors.

I thought you knew about this stuff?

There is no reason as to why, in liue of that indictment of manafort for fara violationbs, the podesta gorup shouldnt be charged as well.

In fact, the podesta group said they thought when they refiled that they were working for a non profit.

As the mueller indictment shows, they lied, and knew they were working with the President of the Ukraine.

November 2012, GATES wrote to Company A and Company that the terms needed to prepare
an assessment of their past and prospective lobbying efforts so the President could be briefed by
Paul on what Ukraine has done well and what it can do better as we move into 2013

www.cnn.com...

So not only did they not file, which was a crime, they also lied when the refiled by saying they didnt know there info was being directly by the Ukrainian president.

Your argument comes down to Manafort broke more laws, so he should be charged with Fara, but podesta only broke the fara law, so he should be left go.

That is absurd.

And lets appoint a special prosecutor into the podesta group, and allow it to be ever expansive, and see what we find!

Oh thats right, only trump people should be charged with crimes.

a reply to: Grambler

Ouch.

I hope you're not holding your breath for a response like "you know what, you're right. they should both be charged". Goddess Hillary and her minions can do no wrong.

a reply to: face23785

Really? What rock you been living under? I don’t agree with it, I think all of them should not have used private servers. That being said hanging Hillary out as the only person to do so is ignorant at best. Mind you I can’t stand he, but in this case it was a witch hunt. She is a witch though.

www.google.com...

originally posted by: mzinga
a reply to: face23785

Really? What rock you been living under? I don’t agree with it, I think all of them should not have used private servers. That being said hanging Hillary out as the only person to do so is ignorant at best. Mind you I can’t stand he, but in this case it was a witch hunt. She is a witch though.

www.google.com...

I don't see anything in there where it says he was found to have sent or received classified material. That is the big difference here. A lot of people have communicated outside official channels. What makes it criminal is if you're sending and receiving classified info.

If you can find something that shows he sent or received classified material, let me see it. If he did, I have no special love for him. They can charge him too for all I care. The precedent that it's okay to disregard safe handling of classified information cannot be left as it is.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, 2012, where the indictment says Manafort worked with group A and B (Mercury and Podesta group) to peddle influence for Pro russian ukranian state actors.

I thought you knew about this stuff?

According to the indictment, between at least 2006 and 2015, Manafort and Gates allegedly acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 2010 to 2014), Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions).

See above for link or just read the indictment.

Your trolling with BS. Useless to debate with not honest brokers.

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, 2012, where the indictment says Manafort worked with group A and B (Mercury and Podesta group) to peddle influence for Pro russian ukranian state actors.

I thought you knew about this stuff?

According to the indictment, between at least 2006 and 2015, Manafort and Gates allegedly acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 2010 to 2014), Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions).

See above for link or just read the indictment.

Your trolling with BS. Useless to debate with not honest brokers.

I quoted from the actual indictment, and linked it.

Part of whta he was charged with was lobbying for the pro russian ukranian president without filing in 2012 thru 2014.

The indictment specifically says that Mercer and the Podesta group were told by Gates that there work was for the President of Ukraibne.

So the Podesta group lied when the retroactovely filed the FARA papers and said they didnt know they were working for Ukrainian government people.

Your deflections are amusing as always, but when I link DIRECTLY TO THE INDICTMENT, and you say "NUH UH!!!" you look foolish.

a reply to: face23785

www.google.com...

Again not the first or the last.

originally posted by: mzinga
a reply to: face23785

www.google.com...

Again not the first or the last.

Ah okay. Let's see what we got here.

None of the messages were marked classified when originally sent, and none were determined to include information from the intelligence community, Linick said in the document.

Now, Clinton also claimed none of the emails she sent or received were classified at the time. However, we know that's a lie. Comey revealed some of the emails were indeed marked. There is also such a thing as information that's what they call "born classified" meaning that as soon as the information is generated, whether it's recorded on a notepad, in an email or whatever, it is by its very nature classified. We know for a fact that Clinton sent and received such material, because Comey, in his statement in July 2016 said she did. People in high level positions like the Secretary of State are trained to know how to recognize this material.

Powell, on the other hand, is alleged to have sent unclassified material that was later classified. That's a whole different ballgame. If someone determines some of it was born classified, then we can go after him too. I don't care.

Here's the other issue:

But, he added, “I did not use my email account for any classified matters because I had a classified computer on my desk.”

The difference here is, Clinton did not even have a state.gov email account when she was at State. She did ALL of her email through her private server, which by default must have included classified emails. There's simply no way the Secretary of State could do his/her job without sending and receiving classified emails. She knew that, yet still chose to route all of her emails through an unclassified medium. That's illegal, and she knew it was illegal. It's impossible for her not to have known. She's a former First Lady, former Senator for 8 years, she was on the Senate Armed Services Committee for 6 of those years and they deal with a ton of classified material. She also would've been briefed by career State Department officials when she began her role as Secretary of State and there's mandatory training everyone has to take. Remember how they were touting her extensive experience as one of her assets? With her extensive experience, there's simply no way she didn't know how to properly handle classified material or what information is born classified. It's impossible. She willfully and intentionally broke the law.

Now, Powell is still guilty of circumventing the collection of federal records. We can go after him for that, that's fine with me. Even if you can prove the emails he sent were classified at the time, let's do it. The fact that someone else did it before is no excuse. Clinton knowingly violated the law and put our national security at risk. Not prosecuting her sets a dangerous and irresponsible precedent. Comey even tried to get out in front of that at his press conference, basically saying we're not charging her but please, nobody take that as an indication that it's okay to do this in the future. He knows she broke the law.

If you need to reply, go ahead but I won't discuss this further here. We've already derailed the thread enough. If you want to know more, I suggest you DM me.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, 2012, where the indictment says Manafort worked with group A and B (Mercury and Podesta group) to peddle influence for Pro russian ukranian state actors.

I thought you knew about this stuff?

According to the indictment, between at least 2006 and 2015, Manafort and Gates allegedly acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine, the Party of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 2010 to 2014), Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions).

See above for link or just read the indictment.

Your trolling with BS. Useless to debate with not honest brokers.

I quoted from the actual indictment, and linked it.

Then you have an issue with reading. That or you are lying in claiming the work ended in 2012.

Here is your link, page one of the indictment:

Defendants PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR., and RICHARD W.

(GATES) served for years as political consultants and lobbyists. Between at least 2006 and 2015,

and GATES acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine, the Party

of Regions (a Ukrainian political party whose leader Victor Yanukovych was President from 2010

to 2014), Yanukovych, and the Opposition Bloc (a successor to the Party of Regions that formed

in 2014 when Yanukovych fled to Russia). MANAFORT and GATES generated tens of millions

of dollars in income as a result of their Ukraine work. In order to hide Ukraine payments from

United States authorities, from approximately 2006 through at least 2016, and

GATES laundered the money through scores of United States and foreign corporations,

partnerships, and bank accounts.

www.cnn.com...

Can't have a discussion with folks that refuse to acknowledge facts or invent "alternate" ones.

a reply to: soberbacchus

When did I say he was only accused up until 2014?

Your own link shows he worked with the Ukrainian president from 2012 to 2014, which is exactly when the indictment says he was working with the podesta group.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

When did I say he was only accused up until 2014?

Your own link shows he worked with the Ukrainian president from 2012 to 2014, which is exactly when the indictment says he was working with the podesta group.

You claimed 2012, not 2014 and the indictment literally says "Between at least 2006 and 2015,

Not 2012
Not your new alternate fact of 2014
AT LEAST until 2015

as to your question of when did you say 2012?

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus


Manfort specifically was not charged with fara violations while working for trump, it was from 2012, when he was working with the Podesta group, to give lobbyists access to politicians like Hillary clinton.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Its real simple.

]If manafort is charged for not filing in 2012 for working with ukraine, then the Podesta group he was working with should also be charged.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, 2012, where the indictment says Manafort worked with group A and B (Mercury and Podesta group) to peddle influence for Pro russian ukranian state actors.

I thought you knew about this stuff?

Your BS level is stunning.

Read your own posts.

a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, that says he was charged for not filing for working with the uukranaina preisdent in 2012 to 2014, where he worked with the podesta group.

And?

Does that say, "Oh he was only charged for the 2012 thru 2014 times, there was no other crimes he was charged for. Just 2012 to 2014. Thats it"

Oh no it doesnt say that.

But congrats on skirting the issue again.

Y0u keep arguing its ok to charge manafort for the exact crime that the Podesta group committed.

Its ggreat to watch hypocrites out themselves.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, that says he was charged for not filing for working with the uukranaina preisdent in 2012 to 2014, where he worked with the podesta group.

And?

Does that say, "Oh he was only charged for the 2012 thru 2014 times, there was no other crimes he was charged for. Just 2012 to 2014. Thats it"

Oh no it doesnt say that.

You don't appear qualified to explain what written texts say.

AGAIN...The VERY FIRST LINE OF THE INDICTMENT CHARGE.

NOT 2012, NOT 2014, THEY ARE CHARGED WITH ACTING AS UNREGISTERED AGENTS AT LEAST INTO 2015.

"Defendants PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR., and RICHARD W. (GATES) served for years as political consultants and lobbyists. Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT and GATES acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine"

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, that says he was charged for not filing for working with the uukranaina preisdent in 2012 to 2014, where he worked with the podesta group.

And?

Does that say, "Oh he was only charged for the 2012 thru 2014 times, there was no other crimes he was charged for. Just 2012 to 2014. Thats it"

Oh no it doesnt say that.

You don't appear qualified to explain what written texts say.

AGAIN...The VERY FIRST LINE OF THE INDICTMENT CHARGE.

NOT 2012, NOT 2014, THEY ARE CHARGED WITH ACTING AS UNREGISTERED AGENTS AT LEAST INTO 2015.

"Defendants PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR., and RICHARD W. (GATES) served for years as political consultants and lobbyists. Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT and GATES acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine"

Last post to yopu.

I never, not once said that they werent in trouble after 2014.

I said it was before he was trump campaign manager.

I said he was charged for his efforts in 2012- 2014 when at this time he was working with the Podesta group.

You are so partisan and so desperate to somehow say that the indictment, that shows that the Podesta group committed one of the exact crimes with the exact people working with manafort to do it, should not be a reason to charge the Podesta group.

You have made it qyuite clear; hillarys people can committ the exact same crime as trump people, and you think trumps people should be charged and hillarys people let go.

Keep shouting "But 2015!!!!! 2015!!!! So the Podesta group shouldnt be charged!!!!"

It didnt make sense the first time you said it, it doesnt now.

and further more, I was referencing Manaforts work with the Urkarnian President, who was removed from office in...,. 2014.

This is who the podesta group worked with manafort to lobby for.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: soberbacchus

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: soberbacchus

Yes, that says he was charged for not filing for working with the uukranaina preisdent in 2012 to 2014, where he worked with the podesta group.

And?

Does that say, "Oh he was only charged for the 2012 thru 2014 times, there was no other crimes he was charged for. Just 2012 to 2014. Thats it"

Oh no it doesnt say that.

You don't appear qualified to explain what written texts say.

AGAIN...The VERY FIRST LINE OF THE INDICTMENT CHARGE.

NOT 2012, NOT 2014, THEY ARE CHARGED WITH ACTING AS UNREGISTERED AGENTS AT LEAST INTO 2015.

"Defendants PAUL J. MANAFORT, JR., and RICHARD W. (GATES) served for years as political consultants and lobbyists. Between at least 2006 and 2015, MANAFORT and GATES acted as unregistered agents of the Government of Ukraine"

I said he was charged for his efforts in 2012- 2014 when at this time he was working with the Podesta group.

That is not what you said at all, ever and your own posts debunk that false claim as I cited above.

You are so partisan and so desperate to somehow say that the indictment, that shows that the Podesta group committed one of the exact crimes with the exact people working with manafort to do it

That straw man argument of yours is unrelated to the "alternate fact" you invented and I proved false.

The difference between Podesta Group and Manafort is a universe apart. Manafort's indictment is sprawling and includes Massive Money Laundering, Illegal payments, Tax Evasion, a successful secret plan to convict and jail the former Leader of Ukraine with false evidence, Real Estate and Bank Fraud etc. etc.

Your claim that since they both share the failure to file as lobbyists of a foreign government, they are both equally guilty or innocent of the totality of charges is stupid.

In a thread about Manafort, you are desperate to make it about Podesta Group and employ defective reasoning and alternate facts to do so.

It is a rinse and repeat for all things threatening to your world view.

Deflection, Straw Men, Alternate Facts...double down on fake facts when confronted.

It is trolling, not legitimate debate.

Well, he has no proof of this.