Debunking Flat Earth and the Hollow Earth

a reply to: wmd_2008


An island? Come off it. That is plainly a Black Triangle UFO.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: wmd_2008


An island? Come off it. That is plainly a Black Triangle UFO.

Wish it was then at last a ufo pic taken by someone that knows how to use a camera

a reply to: Hyperboles

No, you don't...

"Rollies Hodge podge" as you put it is factually correct and an accurate representation of reality which takes into consideration the important factors with regard to the situation in question.

Now I see you claiming that you could design an aircraft from nose to tail as well... All I can say about this is with your poor appreciation for the details and substandard ability to accurately comprehend why they're important is that i sure as hell wouldn't step foot anywhere near any aircraft you designed!

Thank you though for repeatedly and clearly demonstrating that even round earth believers can suffer from the dunning Kruger effect and be just as prone to spitting out fallacies as flat earthers!

It's important that the flat earthers see this so that they can understand that we aren't in fact threatened by their "revolutionary knowledge", suffering from cognitive dissonance, and or the other old standby's they use to talk themselves into believing that our opposition is persecution or punitive in nature.

Bad logic, faulty knowledge, and poor comprehension of how things work is what we're opposed to whether it's someone arguing for the flat earth or you arguing that I'd need to apply downward control correction in flight to maintain a consistent flight path.

By the way, I found it both amusing and simultaneously extremely frustrating that you pretty obviously didn't take the time to read and think about the post I wrote. And yes, it was glaringly apparent by your response that you did indeed fail to read and or make any effort to evaluate anything about my post beyond my indicating that Rollie was right and you weren't.

Had you done so it would have been immediately apparent that that my position on the subject was based on my own knowledge rather than faith in Rollies knowledge.

You made yourself look insufferably arrogant, ignorant, and intellectually dishonest by choosing to respond in this manner which, while frustrating to me, it only really hurts you.

a reply to: Marbella

I've watched hours upon hours of video people like you scream shows the truth if only you're not too indoctrinated to see the proof they show.

To put it mildly, they're crap. Literally the more I watched the videos and thought about the claims they contained the more confused then horrified then angry and finally FRIGHTENED I became that anyone was falling for this!

The thing I find most sickening and flat out makes me angry is the utter willingness of flat earthers to lie and drag the name of great men like Tesla and the founding fathers of America through the mud with utter impunity in an attempt to make their crappy pre dark ages reject theory seem anything resembling legitimate!

The rank dishonesty and dependence on the utterly abysmal education level of the general public that the purveyors of this crap fest bank on says more than enough about why no one should believe this s*** long before you even start looking at the nuts and bolts of their ridiculous claims and "proofs".

Ask yourself this, why do they feel so compelled to spend such massive amounts of time in every video they make "proving the dishonesty" of anyone and everyone who doesn't believe EXACTLY like them?

Why did Antonio Subirats feel the need to call Patricia Steere a tranny?

Why did Jake "the flat earth ahole" spend more time and put more videos "calling out" other flat earthers than doing anything resembling real experiments or research?

If you were to visit a site that specializes in cult awareness and details the key hallmarks to recognizing cults you'd find that one of the Biggest warning signs is when a group attempts to completely break down your existing belief system and distrust any outside people sources of information or etc.

Science is the antithesis of all this!

Science doesn't care if you trust it. You don't have to take anything on faith in science.

Science will hand you the information, detail what experiment was done, and how the conclusions were come to after the experiment and you are totally free (you're actually encouraged to!) to replicate this same experiment and report your results.

Heck you can even go to someone involved in the type of science you're interested in and say hey they came to this conclusion from this result in this experiment BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S RIGHT how can I do an experiment that will either support or refute the conclusion?

They will help you find an already published experiment which did just that and help you understand how to properly replicate the experiment for yourself, explain the experiment and why it proves what you want to know, or even help you design an experiment so you can prove it to yourself.

Also, say you do an experiment on your own and you get a result that genuinely looks like it is showing evidence for a flat earth or etc. You can go to someone in the right field of science for the experiment and say "hey I did this experiment and it seems to indicate this, can you please help me understand what is going on here if that's not actually the case?"

They will help you or find someone who can most of the time. (Some people suck so you might have to ask a couple people before one helps you, but compared to having a flat tire on the freeway you're going to get help astonishingly quickly)

I know that this is true btw because I've been approaching people involved in science and engineering since I was 11 years old or so and getting just amazing amounts of help and support and encouragement from people simply by asking politely and having reasonable expectations.

On a personal note, the internet isn't the best place to do this though. It's far too easy to believe the worst of [email protected] and frankly [email protected] will interact with you much differently in person than he will to [email protected]

Plus you can look each other in the eyes and stand 5 feet away from each other where both your ability to evaluate honesty and the stakes for calling someone a F***ing liar are much higher.

If you really do want answers and truly do value truth, it's not at all hard to get to the bottom of this flat versus round thing. Please please please consider doing so.

originally posted by: wmd_2008

Now if the Earth was flat I should see the same view of Ailsa Craig at whatever height.

Paradoxically, and ironically, Marbella's "Here are indisputable proofs that Earth indeed is flat" video contains even better proof that the earth is spherical. They show a boat and a ship with a mast sailing into the horizon:

originally posted by: Marbella
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Here are indisputable proofs that Earth indeed is flat;

youtu.be...

13:34
"The researchers observed that after some time following the boats with the naked eye, they began to disappear on the horizon. First, the hull. "



"Soon after, the boat was no longer visible."


"And finally, the mast goes down, until it disappears completely, as the spherical earth theory explains."



" When the boats reached a certain distance, it was no longer possible to see them with the naked eye. So does this mean that the Earth is really spherical?"

So this is the indisputable evidence of flat earth Marbella presented to us, or do you think you can dispute it? It looks a lot like your evidence. They don't answer their own question about whether those images prove the earth is really spherical at that point in the video, but the video description on the youtube page says this:

"Experiments with refracting and reflecting telescopes have proved that boats do not disappear on the horizon, but we lost the ability to observe them due to an optical phenomenon. This phenomenon was studied by the researchers, who formulated a new physical theory, which explains physically and mathematically how this works."

I checked their website and their "new physical theory" isn't on their website yet.

They go on to display their ignorance about radio waves, by assuming they can only travel in a straight line.


They show radio waves are received over the horizon, but they didn't bother to read the wikipedia article saying that's what radio waves do so it's just a display of their ignorance.

radio signals tend to follow the curvature of the Earth

The radio signal spreads out from the transmitter along the surface of the Earth. Instead of just travelling in a straight line the radio signals tend to follow the curvature of the Earth. This is because currents are induced in the surface of the earth and this action slows down the wave-front in this region, causing the wave-front of the radio communications signal to tilt downwards towards the Earth. With the wave-front tilted in this direction it is able to curve around the Earth and be received well beyond the horizon.

So they proved the wikipedia article is right, but that doesn't prove the earth is flat, it proves they and their followers like marbella need to learn science.

originally posted by: wmd_2008

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: wmd_2008


An island? Come off it. That is plainly a Black Triangle UFO.

Wish it was then at last a ufo pic taken by someone that knows how to use a camera

Speaking of UFOs, there's a famous old UFO case that research shows could have been caused by the ducting phenomenon, where the pilots might have been seing cloud formations from many kilometers away through an atmospheric duct.

This page has more information about optical ducts which can allow lasers to be seen past the horizon and despite the earth's curvature.



" A careful look at the diagram shows that the three rays all cross about 20 km from the observer. Objects beyond this distance — say, 30 km from the eye — are seen inverted. This inverted image is the classical “superior mirage,” in which the inverted image appears above an erect image (formed by a third group of rays that will be discussed below).

But the rays are “reflected” again, and cross again about 40 km from the observer, so that at 50 km an erect image is seen once more. Notice, however, that the crossings are gradually getting out of step, so that the image becomes progressively more distorted and eventually quite jumbled. This jumbling leads to the confused images of the Fata Morgana, a complex mirage display produced by strong ducts."

Marbella's "experts" apparently have no idea about this science either, when their youtube page says lasers can be seen past the horizon:

"A long-range laser was used to measure the flatness and leveling of the waters at the Três Marias Dam (MG); in Lagoa dos Patos (RS), on Lake Titicaca, Peru; and in the seas of Ilhabela (SP) and in the Strait of Gibraltar. The tests performed up to 35 km did not identify any curvature."

originally posted by: roguetechie
The rank dishonesty and dependence on the utterly abysmal education level of the general public that the purveyors of this crap fest bank on says more than enough about why no one should believe this s*** long before you even start looking at the nuts and bolts of their ridiculous claims and "proofs".

Ask yourself this, why do they feel so compelled to spend such massive amounts of time in every video they make "proving the dishonesty" of anyone and everyone who doesn't believe EXACTLY like them?

I found this interesting comment about different types of flat-eathers:

Different types of flat-earthers

There are a few different types of flat Earthers I have run across over the past few years, and this is my take on them:

The scientifically illiterate and poorly educated

These people are not mentally ill, they are just vulnerable to accepting incorrect information they run across in YouTube videos, which because of their limited intelligence they simply do not bother to verify with other, more credible sources. These types also lack critical thinking skills and often are incapable of applying simple logic to the claims they accept. Many flat Earthers in this category seem willing to accept being corrected on the factual errors in their information, but often simply move on to accepting new incorrect information, and the cycle continues.

The religious fundamentalists

The conspiracy theorists

The “everybody is lying to me” types

The die-hard flat Earth types

The liars, con men and charlatans

This type knows very well that the Earth is not flat, yet preys on the vulnerable and simple minded by creating monetized YouTube videos or selling books claiming that it is. These types are likely suffering from Anti Social Personality Disorder:

People with antisocial personality disorder may disregard social norms and laws, repeatedly lie, place others at risk for their own benefit, and demonstrate a profound lack of remorse. It is sometimes referred to as sociopathic personality disorder, or sociopathy.

I only included the detailed descriptions for the first and last types but the link has more description for all the types. I thought it was interesting, and when I see people promoting monetized youtube channels I begin to wonder if they even believe this malarky themselves or if they are just trying to make money from the scientifically ill-equipped who subscribe and give their videos views.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Isn't that just priceless?

a reply to: [post=23289533]roguetechie

Hey you should read the op again and again till understanding finally dawns upon you.
I will be my own test pilot for any aircraft designed by me and wouldn't allow you to do it for me or come anywhere near it.

originally posted by: Hyperboles
Flat Earth

This idea is gaining popularity with myraid number kooks and cranks. The earth is a globe and always has been. If you happen to fly a plane only with reference to the attitude indicator, the altitude increases as the earth surface backs away, indicating its curved.

Hollow Earth

It is harder to debunk. There is no proof whatsoever except some legends. It is were true can you imagine a 4200 miles of atmosphere above you at the centre. the atmospheric pressure there will be close to 300lbs/sqin. Now what kind of flesh and blood can survive there, certainly not the surface dwellers who are used to 15lbs/sqin of atmospheric pressure.
So if there are inhabitants in the hollow earth, they cannot survive on the outer surface. The trees in the hollow earth will be certainly huge

If you are in the business of seeking the truth perhaps you might like to visit this site, there is a very interesting article there:

Link

a reply to: Arbitrageur

The problem is fe's just say that is because of perspective or their claimed 3 mile limit for eyesight yes some do claim that. Thats why a target 31 miles away was a good example.

Many fe's on youtube will be taking advantage of the vast population of badly educated people that can use the internet years ago you actually had to know what you were doing now a 2 year old can use tablets etc.

Also they don't have one theory that explains everything in fact lots of them disagree with each other.

Then of course from the USA and other parts of the world we have the religious nut jobs that think their religious text is a science book than what it really is a story book.

a reply to: Azureblue

what utter bollox - reading that - the challenge is not to find a lie or missrepresentation - but to actually find an accurate statemment

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

I found this interesting comment about different types of flat-eathers:

Different types of flat-earthers

I think that within some of the categories of flatEarther you list, there runs a strain of tribalism too, of casting one’s lot with a belief system and defending it as one would a family member. An emotional attachment more than a reasoned one, just as political affiliations can be, or fandom of sports teams, or other allegiances people practice. It’s seemingly a “club” sensibility, the feeling of being part of a movement that will change the world, in their minds. And anyone not in the movement—of the other tribe—is the enemy.

Things aren’t exciting in the same way for globe-ists, because our facts are hardly new, nor controversial, nor would they even raise an eyebrow in a class of well-instructed first-graders. We don’t dream of un-masking centuries’ worth of cover-up, and shaking society’s foundations. All we do is marvel at the new science and technology that continuously emerge from long-proven physical laws and observations. From time to time some of us extend ourselves to help our flatEarth cousins see reality for what it is, but if unsuccessful, we don’t lose any sleep. The flatEarth movement may be growing right now, but it’s still a mean little weed, and won’t flourish. It’s a fad.

a reply to: Hyperboles

Will... Maybe... Someday... Hopefully....

Meanwhile I've been designing and building then flying driving walking shooting and shooting at things I've personally designed and constructed for 2+ decades now.

Your confidence would mean something to me if it wasn't dreadfully misplaced.

a reply to: Rollie83

Rollie... Except according to a recently conducted survey something like a third of American 18-24 year olds hold some degree of flat earth sympathies.

This is a real problem man, and one we can't write off to being a fad.

There is something driving this and whatever it is constitutes a very real danger to the world as we know it. Whatever it is seems to be able to roll back core cognitive concepts like object permanence the way my can opener peels back the lid on a can of soup. Throw in the "circle of sight" stuff that goes along with the base flat earth belief and you're starting to get into really dangerous territory that results in swarms of people who are essentially primed and ready to be exploited into doing extremely horrific stuff because reality isn't real there is nothing that can actually be verified anyone who doesn't see the truth isn't a real person anyway and etc etc...

The reason I post in these threads and etc is to hopefully get other people who haven't been taken in by this already to see that whatever is going on to screw these people up is way more effective than it should be especially considering how bad the people trying to convince people of the flat earth are at doing anything other than proving over and over that earth is round in their "evidence"!

Did you know that the big name flat earth types are now also pushing the idea that airliners only use jet fuel for their APU's which they only use to provide power for climate control lights etc while on the ground and on ascent and descent to and from cruising altitude?

They literally think that a combination of the APU and compressed air stored where fuel tanks are supposed to be are used to get the aircraft to And from cruising altitude and speed where an over unity process happening in the engines takes over and provides enough power for everything.

And that the airlines hide this technology to make more money.

As evidence they claim that aircraft couldn't physically hold the volume or weight of fuel they say they do, and that even if they could it would take days or weeks to pump that much fuel into an individual aircraft, and that further they don't see line upon line of tanker trucks pull up to each aircraft which proves that it's impossible they really hold that much fuel because otherwise they'd see it delivered!

The best part is that they will show you cutaway views of turbine engines and ask where the spark plugs are and demand to know why combustion wouldn't rip the engine apart because obviously turbines should have to be built as sturdy as piston engines and other inanities!

AND THEN

in the same breath they will tell you that things like Learjets gulfstreams and small hobbyist grade jet turbines do work "the old way" by gobbling fuel and with miniaturized but essentially identical internals as the cutaway drawings of the big engines show somehow even though apparently the larger versions are impossible but small ones work fine!

So now we have flat earthers sharing and believing something even more insane amongst themselves, and what's really interesting is basically no one who isn't a flat earth believer buys this new add on jet plane theory!

I actually spent some time back tracking this mind you starting from people making positive and negative comments on the jet conspiracy theory videos and digging around to find other comments etc these individuals had made on other videos, any videos they posted, and whatever else I could fairly easily dredge up of their online presence to get a feel for them.

I found that you could believe in all sorts of other conspiracy and fringe stuff INCLUDING FREE ENERGY TOPICS and still not be even a little swayed in every case. The only people who believed or were even intrigued by these videos were flat earthers 100% of the time. Interestingly enough, I also found multiple people who claimed to not be flat earthers commenting in support of the jet conspiracy videos when said videos weren't posted in a flat earther channel. But you'd then check out other comments etc they make on other videos on other channels and... BOOM FLAT EARTHERS!!

This should trouble people...

1. Because it's a great indicator that There's way more flat earthers than people think.

2. Once people buy into flat earth it's disturbingly easy to get them to believe other things that are even more in your face untrue etc.


As a very wise and timeless funny man once said
"Certainly any one who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."

THAT is why this is serious

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: Rollie83

This is a real problem man, and one we can't write off to being a fad.

Rouguetechie, I see and appreciate your points about the flatEarth movement, even while having a somewhat different sense of its danger. I share your horror at its backwardness, and am well aware of the various, terrifically ignorant tenants you mention, such as the “jet fuel hoax”. I’m not impassive about all this, but troubled, but much less so for society’s sake than for the individuals who buy into such nincompoopery, and suffer the burden of delusion.

My essential reasoning is that the people who truly advance society aren’t those embracing the nonsense. Whatever the percentage of flatEarth believers is among the population, it doesn’t cut a very impressive cross-section. There’s a pretty discernible line which divides the flatEarthers from the scientists, engineers, educators, pilots, builders, global-communications designers, and all other folks who propel technology and “make the world go ‘round.” So I see the flatEarth movement as more of a cultural problem than one that will grind society to a halt, because those who preserve and apply real knowledge in society will continue to do so, all the same.

My own expertise relates directly to aviation, and as I write this I’ve never known a pilot, or any field-related expert who gives a scintilla of credibility to the flatEarth hypothesis. I see no danger that flatEarthers will end up in cockpits, ever. The knowledge required to actually contend with the physical world, naturally weeds out absurdities. I suppose the same for other fields of expertise, because I don’t see how people could get through fact-based training with flatEarth beliefs. The contradiction would appear early, and would be un-fixable.

I like the quote you included. Who said it? I think it says something about the movement’s leaders, especially the charlatans among them, and there must be some of those. I’ll give thought to the notion that the flatEarth groundswell, however benign it appears to me on the surface, might be more dangerous than I suppose.

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: Hyperboles

Will... Maybe... Someday... Hopefully....

Meanwhile I've been designing and building then flying driving walking shooting and shooting at things I've personally designed and constructed for 2+ decades now.

Your confidence would mean something to me if it wasn't dreadfully misplaced.

You two, please simply stop, as an outside observer of the ATS science and tech forums i can say the following... I believe almost nothing that either of you say without serious consideration.

Why? well, the following is a list of skill sets/degrees and working experience shared by about 3 members (two of you are arguing here)

Aircraft design
Material science
Computer science
Climate science
Engineering (Civil and mechanical)
Nautical navigation
Radio component designer and operator
Electrical Engineering
Nano-technologist
Blue skies Research-scientist
Nuclear physicist

All rolled into two-three members on ATS.... Sorry but no, pick a life story and stick with it. Im a scientist myself, iv given lots of details on my areas of expertise, one area im ok at is logical analysis and, the above just doesn't quite make a smily face when i think about it, but hey, unlike you guys, ill admit, i might be wrong. If it were true, between, roguetechie, hyperboles and playswithmachines, you must all be 70 year old geniuses that own massive companies and wealth based on just how awesome you are at doing pretty much everything you ever talk about and comment on....

Example - Hyperboles, when you joined and started posting on ATS, you basically sounded like a clone of a user that has been banned several times. Why? well because the things you said, the ways you explained (or didnt) and insulted users who were trying to talk to you was letter for letter identical. SO thus far, if i am to include this speculative identity id say the following

You claim you are an lead engineer, certified in the merchant navy (assuming the banned member is in fact yourself...)
You now claim you are an expert at aircraft design and avionics...
And at the same time claim that the motion of a pendulum violates GR

Soooooooooooooooo..... ya on amazing grounds of trust there. An Engineer who doesn't understand a pendulum and its lack of ability to test GR... Brilliant.


SO both of you, stop this appendage swinging competition, its getting old.

Basically you both made the whole avionics argument absolutely moot because much of what you both say has elements of good judgement, while trying to say the other user is an idiot in a very childish manner. As i say, on the basis of you two... well done, score one for the flat Earthers... not because the flat Earthers are correct, but because people claiming to be experts conduct themselves in the manner shown here.

originally posted by: roguetechie

As a very wise and timeless funny man once said
"Certainly any one who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices."

THAT is why this is serious

Who has power to make you believe absurdities, and commit injustices?

The same people stealing money we have earned fairly in exchange for our labor, but they call it a 'tax' which benefits us all!!
And if you don't pay it, they'll take your home, if you own it, or seize your property, as well, or garnish half of your wages, when they've already taxed your wages, off the top. They can even put you in prison for not paying taxes!

Taxes were once punishable by death!

Who has the power to force people to fight, kill, and die for nothing? They do. All to benefit us, of course. A safe country has wars all over the world, except not in your own country!

And who controls the mass media, and schools, now?


Any idea?




The flat Earth is not taught in schools, it is mocked and scorned, as total nonsense.


You have it completely backwards. You need a reality check...

originally posted by: Rollie83

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: Rollie83

This is a real problem man, and one we can't write off to being a fad.

Rouguetechie, I see and appreciate your points about the flatEarth movement, even while having a somewhat different sense of its danger. I share your horror at its backwardness, and am well aware of the various, terrifically ignorant tenants you mention, such as the “jet fuel hoax”. I’m not impassive about all this, but troubled, but much less so for society’s sake than for the individuals who buy into such nincompoopery, and suffer the burden of delusion.

My essential reasoning is that the people who truly advance society aren’t those embracing the nonsense. Whatever the percentage of flatEarth believers is among the population, it doesn’t cut a very impressive cross-section. There’s a pretty discernible line which divides the flatEarthers from the scientists, engineers, educators, pilots, builders, global-communications designers, and all other folks who propel technology and “make the world go ‘round.” So I see the flatEarth movement as more of a cultural problem than one that will grind society to a halt, because those who preserve and apply real knowledge in society will continue to do so, all the same.

My own expertise relates directly to aviation, and as I write this I’ve never known a pilot, or any field-related expert who gives a scintilla of credibility to the flatEarth hypothesis. I see no danger that flatEarthers will end up in cockpits, ever. The knowledge required to actually contend with the physical world, naturally weeds out absurdities. I suppose the same for other fields of expertise, because I don’t see how people could get through fact-based training with flatEarth beliefs. The contradiction would appear early, and would be un-fixable.

I like the quote you included. Who said it? I think it says something about the movement’s leaders, especially the charlatans among them, and there must be some of those. I’ll give thought to the notion that the flatEarth groundswell, however benign it appears to me on the surface, might be more dangerous than I suppose.

The only danger is that more and more people are seeing reality, and that is what makes it dangerous - to those in power, and those supporting them.

Science doesn't have anything to do with the government. In fact, science is supposed to be the very opposite of politics.

Not in it's pocket, and virtually controlled, by the government!!

The round Earth argument is beyond absurd, compared to a flat Earth.

All oceans have to curve around a sphere, held to the sphere, which spins 2000 mph.

Nobody can prove that water actually 'curves', but it just 'does' curve, okay?

Flat Earth doesn't need water to curve, that's your problem.


What about the atmosphere?

It clings to the planet, spinning at 2000 mph, too!!

While nobody even realizes the Earth, and the entire atmosphere, is actually spinning, let alone at 2000 mph, it just 'does', okay?

Birds which fly in the opposite direction of an entire atmosphere, are also 'spinning' with the atmosphere, too...

Strong winds can blow birds all over the place. No problem in flying opposite of the whole atmosphere, though!


Prove water curves, in our natural world, in the real world, in any actual examples, or just replicate it, in some way.

Science is based on evidence, and proof, and replication, and real-world examples.


Please show me ONE example of water curving, within the natural world. Show me ONE scientific explanation on how water can curve.....

a reply to: turbonium1

Im sorry but you are beyond dense...

Look at the pics on this page...

or this..



You repeat the same arguments over and over when everything has been explained to you hundreds of times in many different threads

Thick as F***