Does more guns = safer....

a reply to: PerfectAnomoly

Guns are highly illegal in places like Honduras yet you are 10 times as likely to be a victim of gun violence there than America.

It's number of guns in the hands of lawful citizens. Not the wild west like you all imagine it would. Criminals will have guns legal or not. Law abiding citizens will follow the law. Therefore make better laws.

a reply to: Wayfarer

I do appriciate the discussion, but why would this part get ignored by most?

And the quantity of guns may indeed be a factor. But long before any weapon fires it's first round, somebody has to pick it up, load it, and point it at a person, in order to kill them. Why that person felt it was the right thing to do is where I find my thinking driving towards.

Unless the goal is to push the gun control agenda, this part seems like a much more sensible aspect to concentrate on. Today it's guns, tomorrow, perhaps Uhaul trucks and crowds. Stopping a person from WANTING to kill others should be the main focus here. Again, unless the agenda is the main goal.

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: network dude
We don't have school shootings because Americans have guns.

That is the argument being used to push the gun control agenda. If the kid had used another method, would we then have to say we have school attacks because we have schools?

The root causes for the school attacks are not being addressed because it doesn't help with painting the picture they wish to paint.

By that same token its easier to acquire a knife (cheaper at least), so why did the student use an AR-15 if a knife or other weapon would have been equally effective? I thought the thrust of the argument was that guns are the superior killing tool and that's why these folks are using them.

exaclty how easy is to get an AR-15? you have to be 18, you have to have about $500 for a cheap one, then you have to buy the ammo, about $.30 a round if you shop around online, and you need to buy 420-500 to get that price. so about $299. I know it took me a bit to be able to afford my first one. I am one of the silly ones who has to work for my $. I sure as hell couldn't afford one as an 18 year old. You can buy a kel-tec semi-garbage weapon for about $200. Why aren't they used? They can have magazines with lots of rounds. Is the AR-15 just that damn sexy to use? Is it peer pressure to use that weapon to be like the other cool school shooters?

I think there are quite a few questions that need answering here, and they don't all start with taking away gun rights. (IMHO)

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: NightSkyeB4Dawn
a reply to: network dude
We don't have school shootings because Americans have guns.

That is the argument being used to push the gun control agenda. If the kid had used another method, would we then have to say we have school attacks because we have schools?

The root causes for the school attacks are not being addressed because it doesn't help with painting the picture they wish to paint.

By that same token its easier to acquire a knife (cheaper at least), so why did the student use an AR-15 if a knife or other weapon would have been equally effective? I thought the thrust of the argument was that guns are the superior killing tool and that's why these folks are using them.

exaclty how easy is to get an AR-15? you have to be 18, you have to have about $500 for a cheap one, then you have to buy the ammo, about $.30 a round if you shop around online, and you need to buy 420-500 to get that price. so about $299. I know it took me a bit to be able to afford my first one. I am one of the silly ones who has to work for my $. I sure as hell couldn't afford one as an 18 year old. You can buy a kel-tec semi-garbage weapon for about $200. Why aren't they used? They can have magazines with lots of rounds. Is the AR-15 just that damn sexy to use? Is it peer pressure to use that weapon to be like the other cool school shooters?

I think there are quite a few questions that need answering here, and they don't all start with taking away gun rights. (IMHO)

I think pricing effects can indeed play a roll (perhaps even one of the best 'middle-ground' approaches so to speak), so this is a good aspect of discussion. I can see a viable system where rather than restrict specific weapons, there is a pricing structure that biases ownership towards the 'less lethal' options like handguns over AR-15's to an even greater extent (more so than the current economics do even).

Without spending a lot of time hunting, do you know how Cruz was able to afford one (and by the sound of it a plethora of other guns)? The impression I got from the couple of reports I read made it sound like he was not exactly wealthy....

originally posted by: PerfectAnomoly
Good afternoon ATS...

Just a quick one this....

I am keen to see the responses.... I hear often that the way to make American society safer is more guns, arm the teachers, arm everyone!

Tell me, if more guns = safer, why is America not the safest country in the world already? If more guns = safer then life in America should be a dream right now...

PA

You banned guns for the most part. Hows the knife crime over there?

a reply to: Wayfarer

I don't know how he afforded his weapons, but a handgun is not less lethal, I don't think. Close range, it's a much better choice. They make some crazy big magazines for Glocks. A gun of any type or caliber can kill. for some reason, the AR is the one crazy folks tend to use, either by design, or because the newz told them it was the best option for that type of environment.

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Wayfarer

I don't know how he afforded his weapons, but a handgun is not less lethal, I don't think. Close range, it's a much better choice. They make some crazy big magazines for Glocks. A gun of any type or caliber can kill. for some reason, the AR is the one crazy folks tend to use, either by design, or because the newz told them it was the best option for that type of environment.

I'm referencing lethality in a general sense, since the higher velocity rounds of the AR-15 have greater media penetration and much larger cavitation effects that make treating those wounds a lot more difficult. Handguns do account for the overwhelming majority of gun deaths though (statistically speaking). I hate to play devils advocate but I would imagine the shooter may have possibly killed fewer with a handgun than the AR-15 he used (and at the very least wouldn't have been as efficacious as shooting through doors/walls as he was).

a reply to: Wayfarer

what characteristics of the AR make it a better weapon for this activity then say, the AK-47, or the SKS? Years ago, they used to sell the SKS packed in Vaseline at discount stores for $100. And you can put a 30 round magazine in one of them, I believe. (I don't own one)

If we are going to go after this one model of weapon, we all need to know what it is about it that is offensive. New Jersey came up with a way to make them look really supremely stupid:

But that didn't change the fact it's the same weapon, you just can't adjust the stock to fit a kid.

ah, yes we are safer from tyranny