Enough is enough. Public massacres and school shootings must stop.

a reply to: Aazadan

Go ahead and completely disregard the black market, not to mention the open borders, etc...

Oh, wait, you've already done that.

That's in a complete aside from all the workshops in America where folks can make their own parts rather easily. Going to make those illegal, too?

It's a nice fantasy for you, but that's all it is. Just remember how well Prohibition worked out.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Aazadan

Go ahead and completely disregard the black market, not to mention the open borders, etc...

Oh, wait, you've already done that.

That's in a complete aside from all the workshops in America where folks can make their own parts rather easily. Going to make those illegal, too?

It's a nice fantasy for you, but that's all it is. Just remember how well Prohibition worked out.

The black market responds to market price, and it's above that. If a handgun costs $5000 normally, it's going to cost you $10000 on the black market. Once supply goes down, cost goes up across the board.

Answer this for me, if gun control didn't work why don't we have an epidemic of people using fully automatic weapons illegally?

originally posted by: sstyles15
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

well, until you present one, a more effective strategy, when we already have effective strategies in place, except, the people who are supposed to be ENFORCE AND PROTECT our laws are failing our kids, then by all means.

What am I generalizing btw?

Just because you don't like it, it doesn't make our current laws and strategy wrong

Right, well then you clearly are not paying attention, these effective strategies as you call them are not working!

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Aazadan

Go ahead and completely disregard the black market, not to mention the open borders, etc...

Oh, wait, you've already done that.

That's in a complete aside from all the workshops in America where folks can make their own parts rather easily. Going to make those illegal, too?

It's a nice fantasy for you, but that's all it is. Just remember how well Prohibition worked out.

The black market responds to market price, and it's above that. If a handgun costs $5000 normally, it's going to cost you $10000 on the black market. Once supply goes down, cost goes up across the board.

Answer this for me, if gun control didn't work why don't we have an epidemic of people using fully automatic weapons illegally?

Big difference between a fully automatic rifle and a semi-automatic pistol, am I right?

In addition, regarding your black market analogy, supply would NOT go down, but would go up. They would be streaming across the porous border we have with Mexico. All you would do it to make the drug cartels even richer and bolder. More would die than you can imagine. Many of them children.

a reply to: Krakatoa

Supply would not go up, if weapons were made illegal, and current weapons were taken off the streets, there would be no need to have an illegal weapon. You wouldn't be able to use it in self defense (well, if you still had ammo you would, but you would then goto jail for possession), you wouldn't have ammunition to go shooting, you wouldn't be able to concealed carry legally.

There would be little purpose in owning a gun. Over a period of a couple decades, most guns would be removed from the streets and even the criminals wouldn't have them. Why doesn't a country like Japan which has an actual mafia as well as being almost 100% an import based country have any problem with guns being outlawed? By your logic they would have a problem with smuggled weapons, yet they don't.

a reply to: Aazadan

Nothing like being murdered by someone with an illegal gun with no way of defending yourself or your family.

a reply to: Aazadan

The black market responds to market price, and it's above that. If a handgun costs $5000 normally, it's going to cost you $10000 on the black market. Once supply goes down, cost goes up across the board.

Like anything else, even illegal, prices fluctuate due to quantity of stock. I have some familiarity with how black markets work, the more of something there is on the market, with multiple sellers the price goes down. Just like in the White Market.

Add to that the veritable flood of guns that'll come across our borders, both north and south, and into the ports. The supply won't go anywhere.

Like I said, fantasy.

Answer this for me, if gun control didn't work why don't we have an epidemic of people using fully automatic weapons illegally?

As with anything else marketable, it comes down to needs/wants. Many of the guns used in criminal activity are not bought legally. They're either stolen, or bought on the black market. You can find fully automatic weapons on the black market, but I'd hazard a guess that they're rather expensive, as there's not a real market for them--criminals can't afford them.

Why do you need an automatic weapon, when semi- works just as well, and are much more readily available to steal? Those folks from whom they steal either don't have and don't want, or can't afford, automatics--usually machine guns which are heavily regulated and require far too much hoop jumping.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Krakatoa

Supply would not go up, if weapons were made illegal, and current weapons were taken off the streets, there would be no need to have an illegal weapon. You wouldn't be able to use it in self defense (well, if you still had ammo you would, but you would then goto jail for possession), you wouldn't have ammunition to go shooting, you wouldn't be able to concealed carry legally.

There would be little purpose in owning a gun. Over a period of a couple decades, most guns would be removed from the streets and even the criminals wouldn't have them. Why doesn't a country like Japan which has an actual mafia as well as being almost 100% an import based country have any problem with guns being outlawed? By your logic they would have a problem with smuggled weapons, yet they don't.

No reason to own a gun. Yeah....right.

Except for that thug who wants those new sneakers you bought, then BANG.
Except for that new iPhone you have, then BANG.
Except for that crack head down the street that needs to rob you or your house to get the money for the next fix, then BANG.
Except for in the aftermath of a devastating natural disaster (hurricane, flood, earthquake, etc..) when that roving gang comes to steal your food or other things, then BANG.
Except for that gangbanger that needs to shoot someone as part of the gang initiation and you won that distinction, then BANG.

No, all crime would end.
The sky would part,
Rainbows would appear,
An unicorns would finally reemerge from their ancient slumber.

Yeah, except for that............

a reply to: seagull

That's the point though, if semi automatics become too expensive, then criminals will move to the next most cost effective option, which is a less lethal alternative just as semi auto's are less lethal than full auto's.

originally posted by: Krakatoa
No reason to own a gun. Yeah....right.

Except for that thug who wants those new sneakers you bought, then BANG.
Except for that new iPhone you have, then BANG.
Except for that crack head down the street that needs to rob you or your house to get the money for the next fix, then BANG.
Except for in the aftermath of a devastating natural disaster (hurricane, flood, earthquake, etc..) when that roving gang comes to steal your food or other things, then BANG.
Except for that gangbanger that needs to shoot someone as part of the gang initiation and you won that distinction, then BANG.

No, all crime would end.
The sky would part,
Rainbows would appear,
An unicorns would finally reemerge from their ancient slumber.

Yeah, except for that............

With what gun would they shoot you?

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Krakatoa
No reason to own a gun. Yeah....right.

Except for that thug who wants those new sneakers you bought, then BANG.
Except for that new iPhone you have, then BANG.
Except for that crack head down the street that needs to rob you or your house to get the money for the next fix, then BANG.
Except for in the aftermath of a devastating natural disaster (hurricane, flood, earthquake, etc..) when that roving gang comes to steal your food or other things, then BANG.
Except for that gangbanger that needs to shoot someone as part of the gang initiation and you won that distinction, then BANG.

No, all crime would end.
The sky would part,
Rainbows would appear,
An unicorns would finally reemerge from their ancient slumber.

Yeah, except for that............

With what gun would they shoot you?

The one they bought on the black market that came from Mexico. Because criminals (by definition) do not obey laws. And if you think the cartels down there would not LOVE us to ban firearms, you are dreaming.

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: seagull

That's the point though, if semi automatics become too expensive, then criminals will move to the next most cost effective option, which is a less lethal alternative just as semi auto's are less lethal than full auto's.

Or they just steal guns from people who have them, like they do now.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Or they just steal guns from people who have them, like they do now.

Is there a big problem out there with full auto's being stolen and used in crimes?

originally posted by: Krakatoa
The one they bought on the black market that came from Mexico. Because criminals (by definition) do not obey laws. And if you think the cartels down there would not LOVE us to ban firearms, you are dreaming.

So why haven't they flooded the market with full auto's?

a reply to: Aazadan

I think the fact they were not banned until 1986 and mass shootings didn't occur using them your argument is kind of stupid. By the way you can still buy any full auto made before 1986. The main reason they are not used is they are hard to get even on black market. Drug cartels buy up just about all full autos in the US along with anything else they can get.

www.washingtonpost.com...

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Or they just steal guns from people who have them, like they do now.

Is there a big problem out there with full auto's being stolen and used in crimes?

Why would they full auto is not effective for killing mass people. This isn't a movie in real life 3 round burst anything else is stupid. And people that have training in forearms know this. You might find some gang bangers that uae tech9's with the firing pin in backwards, Glocks with grey market select fire back plates, and Mac 10/11s converted to open bolt.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Or they just steal guns from people who have them, like they do now.

Is there a big problem out there with full auto's being stolen and used in crimes?

I was not aware the game field you chose uses moving goal posts.

People wanting to commit a crime with a gun will find a way to obtain a gun. If you dont believe me look at Australia and the United Kingdom. Both countries still have gun crimes.

The point I made and that you missed is people who can afford the guns will become targets to have their guns stolen and that also includes the places that sell them.

Translation - Your high price theory fails because it does not do what you claim it would do.

Finally the right to bear arms is to act as a checks and balance against the government. A point everyone pushing gun control ignores. Given how our government has abused its authority I will not be advocating gun control nor will I give up my gun or follow an order to confiscate guns.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Krakatoa
The one they bought on the black market that came from Mexico. Because criminals (by definition) do not obey laws. And if you think the cartels down there would not LOVE us to ban firearms, you are dreaming.

So why haven't they flooded the market with full auto's?

In Mexico they have.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: Krakatoa
The one they bought on the black market that came from Mexico. Because criminals (by definition) do not obey laws. And if you think the cartels down there would not LOVE us to ban firearms, you are dreaming.

So why haven't they flooded the market with full auto's?

In Mexico they have.

And if semi-autos are banned here, there would be a ready made market for them here. The cartels would leap into that void make as much $$$ as possible to diversify their portfolios. How does an intelligent person not see this would be the result? Just use the "drug war" as an example. That same playbook would be used in this case. And making it worse would be the innocent law abiding citizens would be totally defenseless. They would need to depend upon the local authorities to arrive, after the fact, to count the bodies and file the reports.

Not me brother. I refuse to depend upon the possibility that they would come in time to save me or my family, let alone engage to stop it at all. As the recent events show, they will be hiding outside behind their cars waiting for the shooting to stop. By that time, it's too late....so sorry.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
In Mexico they have.

What's stopping them from doing so here? If the theory that gun control cannot work is accurate, then we should have a full auto epidemic on the streets right now. Why don't we?