A new understanding of Apocalyptic visions in Judeo-Christianity

First off, please don't be offended by my opening statement, which is to say that it is my absolute personal conviction that the Judeo-Christian worldview holds the ultimate Truth of Reality, as the question pertains to the nature & purpose of Man in relation to the Universe & to God.

The detail work, is the work of science - but the overarching purpose? That's the work of religion/ spirituality.

Whether we have, as Christians (or Jews) correctly interpreted that Truth, is up for debate. I don't claim that I myself, or any other Judeo-Christian group across the centuries has 'got it right' thus far.

There are several reasons as to why I believe that we are likely to find the ultimate Truth of the spiritual condition & purpose of Man in the Judeo-Christian worldview. I won't labour the point here, because I woud have started a thread very specifically addressing that argument if that had been my intent. I will say that I believe thusly based on a combination of personal experience, on the systemic coherence of the Judeo-Christian development, the refined precepts of the faith, which went from dozens, to ten, to two, to one. The ultimate measuring stick concerns our conduct one to another, and it has been distilled down to the simplest expression, which is that we are to love one another. If we do so, all is well. If we do not, all manner of problems arise. The penultimate measuring stick also involves our attitude to God, and the sacred - but if we are not sure about the existence of God, we can at least agree on the command to love one another as being absolutely 'True' & absolutely 'Just' as concerns its relevance & bearing to our lives here on Earth as humans.

With that said, I would like to forward a little theory which struck me as I was watching a presentation by an evolutionary biologist, regarding the fact that our human perspective on Reality is more of a convention than a true representation of Reality 'as it is'. We do not see Reality 'as it is', and neither do any of our other senses convey the absolute truth of Reality. The senses, and the way we experience the data they present to our brains, are more a matter of convention, or convenience - a useful approximation of Reality, which allows us to function in our environment, to survive so as to pass on our genes. It probably goes without saying that I believe that our existence is more meaningful than the simple matter of surviving long enough to reproduce, and it's probably exemplified by discoveries in modern physics which strongly suggest that the universe is almost 'designed' to be populated by observers, who can experience the universe, and tacitly, it seems, appreciate the universe. Another way of saying that we are here in order to appreciate the universe (and thus derive enjoyment from it) is to say that we were created 'so that the works of God could be made manifest'. Or we could say that 'the heavens declare the glory of God', and that would be a remarkably fulfilling way to think of life & the universe of which we are, apparently, an important component.

If we as human observers can appreciate & enjoy the wonders of the universe, and yet not actually be perceiving the universe as it actually is (reams & reams of data are not available to us, in our 'narrow band' sense derivations & internal brain interpretations of the data we do perceive), then could the remarkably internally self-consistent, vivid & richly symbolic apocalyptic imagery of such spiritual works as the revelation of St John (the Book of revelations in the Bible), including their numerological & alphabetical encoded informational content - even such wide diverse mechanisms as the number of lampstands, the number of wings on a particular class of angel, the colour of the bowls, or the four horsemen, the sounding of the trumpets in a particular order, and so forth....

... Could it all in fact be one enormous KINESTHETIC hallucinogenic experience which is portrayed in a confusing, but internally & eschatologically/doctrinally self-consistent way to the brain/mind of the prophet?

Yes, the various apocalypses are confusing. But they are not so incoherent as to merit being labeled wild flights of fancy. The details, the details, the details - is it perhaps that we are witnessing pure information, relevant to the spiritual well-being of mankind, being portrayed kinesthetically as one giant cypher of the actual underlying structure of not only reality, but the intertwining nature, purpose & responsibilities of God to Man & the Universe, and Man to God, and to the Universe? Are we witnessing all of nature, all of anything, as it is, in one continuous & contiguous information stream of extremely precise terms, which thereby causes an hallucinatory experience in the mind of the observer which is so rich & detailed, that it begs introspection & unfolding, ceaseless study across millennia, never being fully interpreted, but often being partly interpreted, and thus remaining relevant, mysterious, fascinating, raw, powerful, frightening, and humbling?

Could it be that we are witnessing the rending of the veil, the totality of all information relevant to the progress of Mankind, yet encoded, as a cypher - perhaps with details that can only be uncovered, and 'decyphered', once we have achieved a certain level of material, social, scientific & spiritual progress? What if the colour of a seraph's wings denoted the fundamental mathematical constant representing the strong or weak nuclear force? What if the number of stars around the throne is representative of the specific quantum gravity of gold?

This idea I propose, this nugget of a thesis, that the apocalyptic visions represent pure reality, pure information, the rent veil, the uncovering of God, Universe & Man, to the mind of a prophet, in a KINESTHETIC HALLUCINATION (one which conveys a pure & internally consistent truth concerning spiritual reality), is, I believe, accurate, and worthy of more investigation. I offer it to ATS members, and to the world, because I have other things to attend to, which will prevent me from looking further into the matter at this time in my life. I hope that someone will pick this up & run with it, at least investigating it personally, if not necessarily spreading it to others who may wish to investigate using specialist research materials, tools, and assets/ resources.

Bon voyage!

Check out Manly P. Hall on YouTube. It will... supplement your perspective. Cheers!
a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Revelations is a screenplay for the best movie yet to be made.
'Kung Fu Jesus vs. the Seven Headed Beast.'

The word “apocalypse” has a different context for modern readers- destruction, simply put.

It’s orogins in Greek mean a much different thing- uncovering of knowledge.

I think this is in line with your thesis, and I lean towards it in my own personal interpretation. I don’t believe God wants to waste the earth, no matter how wicked it may be. Why? Because we are his children. Parents want what’s best for their children. And good parents learn that forcing or violently punishing is not the most effective teaching mechanism.

That’s just my thoughts. I may be wrong and in for some “fire and brimstone”. However, i doubt it.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Very well put. I'll have to revisit to comment further.

Thanks for the offering.

Yes, the various apocalypses are confusing. But they are not so incoherent as to merit being labeled wild flights of fancy. The details, the details, the details - is it perhaps that we are witnessing pure information, relevant to the spiritual well-being of mankind, being portrayed kinesthetically as one giant cypher of the actual underlying structure of not only reality, but the intertwining nature, purpose & responsibilities of God to Man & the Universe, and Man to God, and to the Universe?

They are incoherent to the unitianted on purpose.

Mark 4.11-12...
The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding. otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!

So you won't be forgiven!

Like Torah, Christianity has been purposely encoded to empower priests to manage the flock. So without the secret oral teachings one has to dig deep to try decipher the literal interpretation.

For example no-one will go to the Father except through me. Many Christains believe Jesus a demigod. But the literal interpretation is incorrect. Jesus was not refering to himself as a materialistic person, much less a GOD. He was refering to himself as the spiritual soul. So without knowing our own soul we cannot know GOD. GOD made us in his image (spiritually). So we need comprehend the microcosm before understanding the macrocosm.

we can at least agree on the command to love one another as being absolutely 'True' & absolutely 'Just' as concerns its relevance & bearing to our lives here on Earth as humans.

We are not robots that can be commanded. We have brains so we can question logic. So commands like love everyone are redundant without first understanding why it is important to love everyone. And we will not understand that reason without first understanding our soul.

Sorry for the rant but I feel christainity needs to be felt not read. As soon as its read its meaning is lost.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

The veil turned out to be a pervert going around hypnotizing the young in a manner that would effect the conscious of the vessel that holds the answers and by interbreeding.

a reply to: howtonhawky

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all. Please clarify what on earth you actually mean?

a reply to: glend

Part of me thinks that you're right, in some respects. But the way you portray the fact of the word seems a little off. My personal belief is that there most certainly is an 'upper echelon' of initiation, perhaps a body of initiates who are in perfect control of the chaos which would otherwise unfold on Earth if we were left entirely to our own devices. Perhaps there is a society of 'angels' operant on Earth, who step in to act with absolute authority at key, pivotal moments, perhaps taking actions, or preventing actions, which may seem unconnected to the larger span of history, but which have a 'butterfly effect' of remarkable complexity, which ensures that the Bond villain can never unleash his doomsday weapon, even if the entire 'illuminati' type power structure of humanity at large is aligned with that intention. Could it be that the apocalypses are doorways into that level of society? Are we supposed to follow the thread & decode sufficiently to unlock contact?

As regards the 'otherwise they might turn, and be forgiven' aspect, I feel that the point being made, is that the ones being spoken of have taken a decision rooted in a context which includes knowledge of the truth, but they have decided to ignore that truth, and go their own way, to hell with the consequences. Perhaps they throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to the ministry that could save them, blinded by nothing but their own callousness, having proven already that they are unwilling to acknowledge the truth made plain by their own consciences? It is perhaps those who have seared their own consciences by wilful intent, who are thus blinded, perhaps symbolically, perhaps metaphysically unable to perceive the good any longer.

Big questions, mysteries, and definitely things we should be pondering. I don't believe that we are supposed to merely 'feel' Christianty (though I have felt the presence of God in powerful ways on a number of occasions, a gift which has resonated into the wider sphere of my life ever since that first encounter). I believe we are supposed to intellectually question the mysteries of that which we have experienced, or that which we hope to experience. Lots to think about, and you're right, it is because we have a brain, a mind, that we are bound by obligation to use them, to the glory of God, and for the benefit of ourselves. So I find your post a little contradictory in some respects, in that you state we should feel, but then state we should understand, before we feel. For me? It was an experience, an encounter, a mystery which unfolded before me, which I could do nothing in response of except follow & believe, thereafter to have the luxury of time & opportunity to question my experience.

originally posted by: FlyInTheOintment
a reply to: howtonhawky

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense at all. Please clarify what on earth you actually mean?

no problem
our minds are all connected subconsciously
if someones mind is hypnotized in a certain manner that can in turn effect our collective understanding.
in other words if someone wants to control mankind then they can select a few specific individuals to "target"and inflict the necessary changes. imo this is often done through messing with the young ones sexually. mingled seed This is what makes the nasser revelations very important to end times events. our Olympians were mentally poisoned. that is an example of the real veil that is being removed by the good side

also selective breeding programs of animals can effect our collective memories also. because we are connected the the plant and animal realms
we are being controlled on multiple levels and is also the reason many individuals are being targeted by gangstalkers and that will tie into some abc agencies

the veil is being lifted

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
john donne

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

"But the way you portray the fact of the word seems a little off."

Yes I could be more than a little off but there is a book called the Book of Zohar (written by a Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai) that goes into great detail about our spiritual nature.

From that knowledge I believe the historical Jesus to be an aboration. Instead we need search for the transcendent Christ, the great pearl. By attaining the transcedentent Christ we will realize our true self. And in realizing the son we will see the Father.

Or I could be mad.

Your call

And the dragon will attempt to devour the light of the world in the end of days, till the light bearer and his armies intervened. Though try as they might, the Dragon swept away with 2/3 of Michaels armies could not prevail of the artisan.

And the angel cried hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees nor the very fabric of time!( I stole that bit from a cartoon). Then the rider came!