Starting a counter LEO agency to end police violence

originally posted by: scojak
a reply to: one4all

Honestly I just mildly skimmed after reading the first sentence. It shows how little respect you have for LEO's which naturally creates your biased opinions.

Anyway, some desperately needed info for you:
The ONLY time you do not have to comply with an officer's REQUEST is during a voluntary encounter. A voluntary encounter is when no crime has been committed and the LEO has no reason to believe you have, or are going to commit a crime.

Why you wouldn't just be a good citizen and help the LEO is beyond me, but you are free to walk away in that situation, though you should confirm with the LEO that the encounter is, in fact, voluntary before doing so.

If, however, the LEO has ANY reason to believe you have committed, are involved in, or are about to commit a crime, you have to obey them. If you do not, that is a violation of the law. Even if you have not done anything, if you are SUSPECTed, you are required to comply.

To summarize:
Voluntary Encounter = you have the right to not comply with requests
Involuntary Encounter = you are required to comply with officer commands

How's that for flawed reasoning?

And for the record, I watched LEO's prevent a crime two days ago when they stopped a guy from jumping off an overpass to commit suicide.

Very funny.

It is not flawed reasoning it is thin blue line colored reasoning.

Committed,involved in,or about to commit......lol......voluntary encounters cannot by proxy be catalysed by LEOs....stop the con-jobs....lol....this is why the sweeping changes are being initiated Nation-wide.......because of the wall of jargon and flawed legeslations which support attitudes like yours......your terminology does not fool anyone any more....your legally vetted terminology and verbology don't intimidate nor confuse anyone any more......lol.....


Listen pal,I am a huge supporter of LEOs,but ones who follow the law,not ones who follow sculpted interpretations of said laws which undermine the People and which are currently supported by flawed legeslations.

I will not invest to much more time on this but here is the first hole in this Titanic con-job.....there are no punative legal recourses fr people who have been wronged by the police via abuse of powers.....basically you have to have reasonable cause to develop a suspect profile of a person...in other words someone walking by a dead body on a busy street is not just cause to suspect them of being in any way involved with a crime.......so you cannot stop them to question them because LEOS cannot catalyse voluntary encounters by proxy......if aLEO requests a passer-by stop to answer questions and the person tells the LEO to blank-off and turns and walks away the LEOs cannot bust them up roust them or in any way harras them........a LEO cannot legally give a command to someone they are not in the process of arresting....lol...you don't get the benefit of the doubt you want you cant use your powers unless you are arresting someone....but you need more so you break the law to get it.

You cant arrest every suspect and you cant detain suspects using your police powers.....you may arrest anyone anytime using those powers in full......but if you aren't arresting you have no more power than the dog catcher....like it or not.

The fraud you and the like pull off is in the verbage you use and the interpretatins of such verbage you choose to use,the verbage is tactically designed as are the interpretations AND the legal precedents and supportive legeslations which are also collisional in nature and supportive of the thin blue line.

We know it took collusion between top level Judges-prosecutors-Police-lawyers-Politicians to lay down the crooked con-job system we are now disenfranchising and dismanteling.....we know how the Thin Blue Line feeds and breaths....we know about vectored legislation and vectored interpretations and vectored Union anf Legal supports......the con-job is over.

Like I said.....there are more good cops than bad cops....by far......but the rotten 0nes are seriously delusional and very very difficult to deal with because of the legeslations they KNOW FULL WELL SUPPORT THEIR CRIMINAL ACTIONS.....why do you think Trump and Friends hamstrung everyone by remediating high level judges...with MANY more to come soon....lol....the good olde days are over for bad cops and tainted ones who are erroneously supporting the Thin Blue Line which can never support them back unless they themselves commit a crime......talk about flawed reasoning....LMAO.

The type of changes law enforcement and crooked judges et al are about to experience will forever be known as LANDSLIDE LEVEL ACTIONS...not sweeping....but LANDSLIDE LEVEL.

Thousands will fall together...many thousands who seriously think they are not of any particular interest.....and the beauty is that this is only round one of the battle.....thousands more now hiding on the periphery will soon be gone as well....and many more thousands of GOOD PEOPLE will replace them seamlessly.

Request and command...basic verbage...request help from suspects......command suspects you are in the process of arresting....yes it sucks to be you but it also sucks to be a Crab Fisherman in a Storm or a Fireman in a burning building... soon the remedial ramifications of breaching peoples rights will result in the termination of any LEOs who need 3 strikes at everything...and the current crooked thin blue line Union support and the thin blue line legislative support from crooked judges will NOT BE IN PLACE......bad cops will be fired and charged legitimately when needed immediatly and pro-actively.

The laws which release criminals back to re-offend and which handicap police will be changed as well ASAP.....the DYNAMICS ENGINEERED TO CONTROL HOW THE POLICE THEMSELVES FEEL WHICH LEADS TO THE THIN BLUE LINE ....well we know about those as well, we are gonna help all the good cops...and remediate all the bad ones...full stop.

I can't believe this is even being discussed. Way to generalize and demonize an entire profession. You know LEOs are out there getting murdered because of this hyped up bull#, right?

Forming a group of untrained and clearly biased individuals solely for the purpose of targeting LE is nonsense. There are plenty of such groups that already exist, including internal affairs, Inspector general (for the Feds) among others. If you really want to make a difference, why not focus on violent criminals? They cause way more harm/deaths/injuries in a single day than every "bad apple" rogue LEO has caused - ever.

That being said, as a Citizen you already have the power to arrest. Read your state laws, but if you have actual evidence of a felony being committed, then you don't need any special commission to arrest the perpetrator. Better yet, if you have actual evidence of wrongdoing, why not simply take it to internal affairs? IA isn't cutting LE any slack, but if you don't trust them, take it to FBI.

a reply to: av8r007


It seems what you are describing might be something like the way the Grand Jury worked in the old days, the Common Law days.

I think it would be an excellent idea. Couple that with restoring the proper role of the petit jury, and we could work towards restoring a government of the people, by the people and for the people.

a reply to: Salander


Agree in the necessity of restoring an independent and impartial Grand Jury system (the one not usurped by the feds in the 1900's, you know.. around the same time as prohibition and 2A infringement)

However, solely focusing on LE seems dishonest. A truly independent and fair GJ would go a long way in restoring the rule of law to this Constitutional Republic. It could restore much needed balance to a system that critics sickeningly muse "would indict a ham sandwich" so why waste that potential on witch-hunts against those sworn to uphold the law? By targeting LE in such a way, you actually vastly reduce the efficacy of this theoretical independent and impartial Grand Jury

a reply to: av8r007

it has become painfully obvious America's police forces do not serve the best interests of this country any longer... they have become hyper-aggressive, paramilitary organizations that lie, cheat, steal and cover up for their brothers in blue

Police behaviour is a good indicator of goverment values, policy and morality.

a reply to: Azureblue


Try looking at the bigger picture from their perspective. They are legally compelled to make contact with lawbreakers, and protect the public at large from crime. Running away is not an option, and they're fully aware that action is faster than reaction. If you wait to respond until you are staring down the barrel of a criminal's gun, it is already too late.

LEOs know a certain portion of the public is outright hostile toward them, just as they know a certain percentage is highly supportive and would come to their aid day or night. You can't blame them for being hyper-aware, and even defensive. These are highly volatile (often emotionally charged) encounters, which are exacerbated by defiant and sometimes violent subjects.

With the world what it is today, it is hardly a wonder police officers aren't taking any chances. They have families and lives they want to go home to, and no one wants to lose their life over a paycheck. It isn't fair to ask LEOs to put their lives in jeopardy over suspects who want to violently resist, make furtive movements, gesture as if they were armed or otherwise put the officer in fear of their life.

No one is excusing rogue LEOs (who are actually just criminals that slipped through the crack, no special distinction needed) who break the law or commit assault/battery/murder. But a lot of the "hyper-aggression" you mention is actually a de-escalatory measure designed to gain compliance verbally, without having to escalate the level of force required to arrest the person in question. Authoritative verbal commands play an important role in the use of force, and allow commands to be clearly understand by the individual. Without "hyper-aggression," officers would have one less tool in dealing with a hostile or dangerous individual. An individual they are usually required to make contact with.

This isn't some average Joe wandering around looking for trouble. This is a person who is sworn to uphold the law and pursue criminals, who is occasionally forced into an unthinkable position of defending their life (or the life of another person) through the use of lethal force. Moral/religious implications aside, they have to undergo an investigation after such an incident and even if it is ruled a good shoot, they still face public outcry. That public outcry is almost always motivated by emotion/revenge/misinformation and not justice, understanding or critical analysis. LEOs are almost always guilty in the eyes of a certain percentage of the public.

I'm not saying you are wrong, or that all LEOs are upright and honorable people. Obviously that isn't true. There will always be rogue/bad actors among any demographic, and it isn't right to demonize an entire group over the actions of such a small few.

a reply to: JBurns

From your post

"This isn't some average Joe wandering around looking for trouble. This is a person who is sworn to uphold the law and pursue criminals, who is occasionally forced into an unthinkable position of defending their life (or the life of another person) through the use of lethal force." -

Yes thats true,

It would have more credibility however, if they spent just as much time and energy persuing people in positons of power whose lust for power and money has turned them into morally and legaly corrupted criminals who have no social mores at all, who care about none but themselves, who are adicted to money and power, who willingly do what is needed to create such people in the first place.

Look up, not down and no higher than horizontally for drivers of this behaviour.

Perhaps you might like to consider the various types of serious crimes in the US with similar crimes in a country like Sweden before the muslim invasion, Germany, Switzland, Australia and New Zealand.

It appears to me, as a non American, that America is all about dog eat dog, every man for himself and the winner takes everything, is what creates the urban jungles of America. The little people are left with little option to kill or be killed.

Once this kill or be killed starts it will never stop and reverse. Perhaps its all being fought from the wrong end?

a reply to: Azureblue

It would have more credibility however, if they spent just as much time and energy persuing people in positons of power whose lust for power and money has turned them into morally and legaly corrupted criminals who have no social mores at all, who care about none but themselves, who are adicted to money and power, who willingly do what is needed to create such people in the first place.

Agreed, but LEOs are only enforcing the laws as created by their state legislature. Intentionally ignoring certain laws is unethical, although it would be nice to see more officers exercise their personal discretion for certain minor or victimless offenses. However, we can't criticize those who do not... that is why they call it "discretion"

Claiming all LEOs are "self-centered, greedy, power hungry and corrupted criminals w/o social mores" is just as wrong as the behavior you are admonishing though. No one is defending cops that break the law (they are also known as "criminals" )

It would have more credibility however, if they spent just as much time and energy persuing people in positons of power whose lust for power and money has turned them into morally and legaly corrupted criminals who have no social mores at all, who care about none but themselves, who are adicted to money and power, who willingly do what is needed to create such people in the first place.

No doubt about it. However, the power structure itself has passed laws/written procedures (much more typical) to insulate itself against this type of legal review and accountability. It has nothing to do with those charged with enforcing criminal law and keeping the peace. This is once again misdirected anger toward LEOs when it should be aimed at state level legislatures (and federal courts/SCOTUS, perhaps) who have designed, passed and implemented these laws.

It appears to me, as a non American, that America is all about dog eat dog, every man for himself and the winner takes everything, is what creates the urban jungles of America. The little people are left with little option to kill or be killed.

Sure, sometimes. There are a lot of bad actors in this country, who lie/steal/kill over our worthless fiat currency, personal affronts, drug debts or other pathetic reasons. I won't dispute that. However, this is also the country that saw a citizen engage a mass-shooter, chasing him for several miles and ending the public safety threat. This is the same country that saw hundreds of citizens run toward gun-fire in Vegas this past October to help evacuate survivors and treat the wounded.

There are indeed a lot of "dog eat dog" type activities going on here. But there are just as many great people who will risk their own lives without a second thought to come to the aid of a total and complete stranger. In this country, many people are armed (some heavily armed) and the BG's (violent crims., murders, mass-shooters, terrorists, etc) never know who is carrying their ticket to a 1-on-1 meeting with the Almighty.

originally posted by: JBurns
a reply to: Azureblue

It would have more credibility however, if they spent just as much time and energy pursuing people in positions of power whose lust for power and money has turned them into morally and legaly corrupted criminals who have no social mores at all, who care about none but themselves, who are addicted to money and power, who willingly do what is needed to create such people in the first place.

Agreed, but LEOs are only enforcing the laws as created by their state legislature. Intentionally ignoring certain laws is unethical, although it would be nice to see more officers exercise their personal discretion for certain minor or victimless offenses. However, we can't criticize those who do not... that is why they call it "discretion"

Claiming all LEOs are "self-centered, greedy, power hungry and corrupted criminals w/o social mores" is just as wrong as the behavior you are admonishing though. No one is defending cops that break the law (they are also known as "criminals"

)

It would have more credibility however, if they spent just as much time and energy persuing people in positons of power whose lust for power and money has turned them into morally and legaly corrupted criminals who have no social mores at all, who care about none but themselves, who are adicted to money and power, who willingly do what is needed to create such people in the first place.

No doubt about it. However, the power structure itself has passed laws/written procedures (much more typical) to insulate itself against this type of legal review and accountability. It has nothing to do with those charged with enforcing criminal law and keeping the peace. This is once again misdirected anger toward LEOs when it should be aimed at state level legislatures (and federal courts/SCOTUS, perhaps) who have designed, passed and implemented these laws.

It appears to me, as a non American, that America is all about dog eat dog, every man for himself and the winner takes everything, is what creates the urban jungles of America. The little people are left with little option to kill or be killed.

Sure, sometimes. There are a lot of bad actors in this country, who lie/steal/kill over our worthless fiat currency, personal affronts, drug debts or other pathetic reasons. I won't dispute that. However, this is also the country that saw a citizen engage a mass-shooter, chasing him for several miles and ending the public safety threat. This is the same country that saw hundreds of citizens run toward gun-fire in Vegas this past October to help evacuate survivors and treat the wounded.

There are indeed a lot of "dog eat dog" type activities going on here. But there are just as many great people who will risk their own lives without a second thought to come to the aid of a total and complete stranger. In this country, many people are armed (some heavily armed) and the BG's (violent crims., murders, mass-shooters, terrorists, etc) never know who is carrying their ticket to a 1-on-1 meeting with the Almighty.

Thank you for that, you make good points.

I agree the law makers have much more to answer for than police because of the unfair and unjust laws they make.

Accepting that the majority of police are well intentioned, they must know and act on the knowledge, their life experience and wisdom they have thereby gained, that unfair laws are exactly that.

If they were to make this publicly known through back channels if necessary, the public would pick it up and take it on board in their interactions with the police trust and confidence would slowly seep into the public domain. This in itself would make it harder to the lawmakers to continue making bad laws.

The way things are going in the US, Britain, Australia and New Zealand - dunno about Canada, corruption and violence among police is growing, the public growing more fearful of police every day. Of course this just tells us their divide and control tactics are working.

I might be negative, but I've been reading this and other sites now for near on 10 years and more and more I see the signs the masses in all western countries sliding inevitably into that great big back hole of tyranny.

Most people don't see it but its like the evening. for as long their is light its still day time. Its only when its dark that its dark and then its too late to do anything about the darkness.

Seems Dr Days "Everything is in its place and No one Can stop us now" will come to pass. This was a speech by Dr

In another thread, today, I see they are going to start denying health care to those not in work just as Dr Day said in 1969 at that gathering of pediatricians. (Dr. Richard Day who died in 1989).

Limiting access to affordable Medical Care makes Eliminating the Elderly Easier

A big item – [that] was the cost of medical care would be burdensomely high. Medical care would be connected very closely with one's work, but also would be made very, very high in cost so that it would simply be unavailable to people beyond a certain time.

Seems this time is upon Americans now which in turn means its upon the rest of the Western World tomorrow.